Are my expectation too high?

protoxeno

New Member
Hey guys, I find that the reason why I am angry at LFS for aros and feel scammed is the prices just too high or my expectations are just too high when paying for a red or xback thats $2300 - $3000+.

Heres what I expect if buying at that price, not some late bloomers but extreme potential at young age, red lips, red finnage, red cheeks, red rims and when grow up, its RED in colour not orange:

0253.jpg


For xbacks, must have gold tone, full pearlies and already 6th lvl gold rims. can't find a xback at young age with that but if my LFS charge that much for xback, they better have those specs. Time has changed and LFS should know that their over pricing days are over because we are here.
 

homebrewed

Super Moderator
Most of these stores do not have direct connections in Singapore and deal with brokers or other handlers. I'm just assuming here as this was the case with a shop in this area that had extremely high prices. They had a HBRTG for $2400. Not really their fault it was that high, it had to cover the costs of going thru multiple handlers.

Anyways, I wouldn't be to hard on them. They also have to cover deaths as well as overhead costs of the stores, therefor charging the extra bit for taking the risk of bringing in a high end fish without a potential buyer fronting some of the cash.
 

Cirrus

Arowana blogger
The industry standard mark up on tropical fish is 4X-5X. Thus, a cardinal tetra that sells for $2.00 in a store cost the owner 40-50 cents. I understand the high mark-up is due to death and disease of fish, which cuts into the profit margin for the store.

The problem I think is when stores carry the same philosophy of pricing over to Asian arowana. The prices just get too high!

Because Canada is such a small market (compared to Asia) for Asian arowana, the supply has been restricted. This means stores are still asking the same prices they were 5 years ago for Asian arows in Canada. Meanwhile, prices have been coming down in Asia. It bugs me that either stores or middlemen have not been reducing their mark-ups on fish to match the lower wholesale prices in Asia.

I agree that for $2000-3000 you should be able to get a really top-knotch baby fish with excellent potential.
 

xbackgolden

New Member
Hey guys, I find that the reason why I am angry at LFS for aros and feel scammed is the prices just too high or my expectations are just too high when paying for a red or xback thats $2300 - $3000+.

Heres what I expect if buying at that price, not some late bloomers but extreme potential at young age, red lips, red finnage, red cheeks, red rims and when grow up, its RED in colour not orange:

0253.jpg


For xbacks, must have gold tone, full pearlies and already 6th lvl gold rims. can't find a xback at young age with that but if my LFS charge that much for xback, they better have those specs. Time has changed and LFS should know that their over pricing days are over because we are here.

Hi there, thats a nice arowana picture. However, do take note, the fish was photographed at the arowana farm with photo editing done. When the same fish gets shipped to canada, it is almost a 15 hour flight and the fish is sedated and stressed. Hence the color tends to fade and will require a few weeks to stablise and regain its color. Hence, for most hobbyist, many of them get the impression that the fish is of inferior quality. Of course that does not mean that there are no inferior quality fish being sold that that price. Also, the ability of the fish to regain its color will also depend on the skill of the LFS owner. It is not easy to groom reds, even though i am taught by my mentor who is one of the best in the business and most people will not be able to do it. You need the right lighting, right amount of water change, right size tank right amount of food etc etc. Hence sometimes, the LFS owner is forced to sell at that price, because of the high price he paid and its not that he or she is out to cheat the hobbyist
 

protoxeno

New Member
Well its a good thing now that we are able to find lower prices from farms directly hences lower much lower price than LFS right?
 

Yuppa

Super Moderator
yes I think your expectations are too high, for reds anyways..
most red's are orange for many years, that eventually turns red.. it may take 5+ years to see your first sliver of true "red".. We often see pictures of indo aro's that are dark red at small sizes, however why is it we only see those pictures from the aro farms?
I know a few people who have paid 3000+ dollars for one of those indo red's, yet it still develops orange first..
So the seller tells us its food, lighting, tank size, water quality ect.

I think the potential for a red is the most exciting part, as its a true challenge to find and raise one properly to its best color.

xback on the other hand, I think its a lot easier to be happy with. I mean, its going to be gold, no matter what. who knows how dark or what shade or the scale core color, but end of the day you still are 100% sure of getting a "gold" aro.

as for pricing of aro's, their not short term fish. aro owners tend to keep their aro's for years and years and are not prone to buying replacements regularly. However more breeders keep breeding them, and over the years we have seen the prices come down overseas.. I hope supply eventually is higher then demand and we can all afford community tanks!
 

protoxeno

New Member
Well for 2k -3k, according to my own prefernece, I would think what I can get with 2k-3k, my awesome dog that does loads of trick costs less than 1.4k. So I would evaluate that way. The red aro have to be an fast bloomer for that price range.
 

ninjaturtle

New Member
hey proto, i think for stores such as Big Als they got to, because they don really have much connection to the other half of the world. but u will see that they often have cheaper tropical fish becuz they breed their own.

anyway, the chinese operated stores in the GTA are diff, they prett much get into a group buy with all the other LFS and run a monopoly in the GTA. that would hopefully end tho.
 

xbackgolden

New Member
Well for 2k -3k, according to my own prefernece, I would think what I can get with 2k-3k, my awesome dog that does loads of trick costs less than 1.4k. So I would evaluate that way. The red aro have to be an fast bloomer for that price range.

Definately for 2-3K you should expect a good quality fish. but just don't be fooled by by pictures on the internet, most of them are edited to make the fishes look better than they acutally are.
 

Cirrus

Arowana blogger
hey proto, i think for stores such as Big Als they got to, because they don really have much connection to the other half of the world. but u will see that they often have cheaper tropical fish becuz they breed their own.

anyway, the chinese operated stores in the GTA are diff, they prett much get into a group buy with all the other LFS and run a monopoly in the GTA. that would hopefully end tho.

BINGO!

Time to get the local hobbyists into the group buy loop!
 

FOSSILFISH

New Member
Are my expectations too high?

We all must remember one thing. LFS take all the risk when they purchase fish from any Aro farm. There are neither consignments done nor guarantees to the LFS when he makes an order to have a selection in his store from an Aro farm.
Each farm has a high minimum number purchase, and by the time a LFS gets his delivery, be it 15 to 35 AroÂ’s, they are in the hole for thousands of dollars. That is not including operating costs, electricity, medication, etc.
We as buyers go to the LFS when we hear about the deliveries arriving within the GTA. Some stores even open doors at midnight for their preferred customers.

We have all seen AroÂ’s come in from their long journey here and when we see them, we are not overly impressed at their appearance because they are not in great shape.
LFS now have to make them look good so that they can sell as many or get deposits on the AroÂ’s to at least recoup some of his investment as soon as the stock arrive. Time is of the essence at this pint and the "Buyer Rush" will only last a few days.
We have all seen LFS holding on to old stock for a few months sometimes over a year before they sell the one's that did not get picked.
I guess you can say that this is why I feel for them at times. In reality they were the one's that took the risk in the late 80's and early 90's to get the fish here and got most of us started. I am a veteran in Arowana keeping since the late 80’s. I was first smitten when I seen my first fully developed RTG. Believe it or not it was at BIG Al’s in the west end. I said to myself, “I must have one of those. I’m sure you all have had similar experiences.

I am not a store owner nor do I have a vested interest in any of the stores in the GTA as some people may think.
My options are open and what interests me is QUALITY and I'm not counting on luck to get what I want.
My personal goal is just like some other members in this Forum, and that is to get the highest quality Arowana available for my collection here in CAN.
Of course I will pay less if I can, I would be a fool and a liar if I told you I wouldn't. But as far as what I have seen over the years, we, in Canada are not getting what the rest of SE Asia is getting.

Some PPL may feel ripped off by LFS when it comes to Aro's, but we still have to rely on them for supplies like filters, aquariums, and other supplies we use day to day in our hobby.
As for group buys, yes, it is a growing trend in the purchase of Aro's, but the stigma attached still holds me back from ordering. It is the "luck of the draw" process.
Not knowing what I will be getting until they hand me the bag, that‘s my issue.
I'm sure; as group buying evolves it may become the norm in buying Aro's.
I know that there is talk about a visual, video and pics of fish before you buy your next group buy Arowana. I may at that point switch to group buys.
But the majority of you must agree with me that there is no comparison to seeing that Arowana live. Seeing the graceful swimming action that it performs, and how it reacts to you as you stare at it for hours at the LFS.
This same topic is going on in SE Asia as we speak. Their dilemma is weather they should purchase from their LFS or group purchase from Indo. The main debate is it’s a “BLIND BUY”.

As for those looking for the lowest price, yes you may get your Aro, but will you get a high quality, maybe not. There is always someone out there willing to pay the price when it comes to quality. Yes, you will sit there staring at that empty aquarium scratching your head and saying to your self, "Who paid that price for that fish?"

Here's the Aro farmers point of view.
Canada has buyers willing to purchase a group of AroÂ’s , but we have price issues. We want to pay what Singapore pays for their AroÂ’s.
Japan, China, Korea, and other SE Asian countries will pay thousand more for an excellent specimen without batting an eye. If you are the Aro farmer who will you call on first, Canada or Japan?
The dividing line is now between buyers of Arowana's and Arowana Connoisseurs. There has to be a supply in the market for all qualities of ArowanaÂ’s. There is LOW, MEDIUM, & of course HIGH. A store canÂ’t keep too many of the other. LFS has to strategically decide what they will carry to be competitive.

To sum things up, in a real world, you will never be able to buy a brand new fully loaded BMW M5 @ a brand new fully loaded HONDA Accord price. I donÂ’t care how long you wait.
That is the same with ArowanaÂ’s.
Decide what type you want to keep and how much you are willing to pay. As long as there is a JAPANESE & SE Asia market for ArowanaÂ’s we will never see a low priced flawless example here. We here in CAN cannot really compete with the YEN pocket book unless you have a lot of $$$ and ready to spend it. IÂ’m not saying itÂ’s impossible, but it will cost you more than the $900 or $1200, your willing to pay.
There are a lot of guyÂ’s here in the GTA with deep pockets seeking that flawless specimen be it RED or GOLD at this moment and you all know who you are.
Once you have a few of those around looking to buy, they will bid for it and that Arowana will sell to the highest bidder.

What do I consider Flawless you ask?
I will ask you this; have you ever seen a real Red Aro? One that is not orange, or deep orange in colour, but RED!!! No enhancements, like red lights or computer enhanced or photo shopped.
Pure RED features in natural un-adulterated white light, LIVE or on line. Perfect body shape what ever your preference, Scale sheen and scale formations etc. Then ask yourself; “How many are there here in CAN, and how many did you go through in your search to find one.” Maybe it’s already the show piece in your home aquarium?

Which one R U? :)
 

rulaifu

New Member
Hi there, thats a nice arowana picture. However, do take note, the fish was photographed at the arowana farm with photo editing done. When the same fish gets shipped to canada, it is almost a 15 hour flight and the fish is sedated and stressed. Hence the color tends to fade and will require a few weeks to stablise and regain its color. Hence, for most hobbyist, many of them get the impression that the fish is of inferior quality. Of course that does not mean that there are no inferior quality fish being sold that that price. Also, the ability of the fish to regain its color will also depend on the skill of the LFS owner. It is not easy to groom reds, even though i am taught by my mentor who is one of the best in the business and most people will not be able to do it. You need the right lighting, right amount of water change, right size tank right amount of food etc etc. Hence sometimes, the LFS owner is forced to sell at that price, because of the high price he paid and its not that he or she is out to cheat the hobbyist
Fair comment
 

rulaifu

New Member
We all must remember one thing. LFS take all the risk when they purchase fish from any Aro farm. There are neither consignments done nor guarantees to the LFS when he makes an order to have a selection in his store from an Aro farm.
Each farm has a high minimum number purchase, and by the time a LFS gets his delivery, be it 15 to 35 Aro’s, they are in the hole for thousands of dollars. That is not including operating costs, electricity, medication, etc.
We as buyers go to the LFS when we hear about the deliveries arriving within the GTA. Some stores even open doors at midnight for their preferred customers.

We have all seen Aro’s come in from their long journey here and when we see them, we are not overly impressed at their appearance because they are not in great shape.
LFS now have to make them look good so that they can sell as many or get deposits on the Aro’s to at least recoup some of his investment as soon as the stock arrive. Time is of the essence at this pint and the "Buyer Rush" will only last a few days.
We have all seen LFS holding on to old stock for a few months sometimes over a year before they sell the one's that did not get picked.
I guess you can say that this is why I feel for them at times. In reality they were the one's that took the risk in the late 80's and early 90's to get the fish here and got most of us started. I am a veteran in Arowana keeping since the late 80’s. I was first smitten when I seen my first fully developed RTG. Believe it or not it was at BIG Al’s in the west end. I said to myself, “I must have one of those. I’m sure you all have had similar experiences.

I am not a store owner nor do I have a vested interest in any of the stores in the GTA as some people may think.
My options are open and what interests me is QUALITY and I'm not counting on luck to get what I want.
My personal goal is just like some other members in this Forum, and that is to get the highest quality Arowana available for my collection here in CAN.
Of course I will pay less if I can, I would be a fool and a liar if I told you I wouldn't. But as far as what I have seen over the years, we, in Canada are not getting what the rest of SE Asia is getting.

Some PPL may feel ripped off by LFS when it comes to Aro's, but we still have to rely on them for supplies like filters, aquariums, and other supplies we use day to day in our hobby.
As for group buys, yes, it is a growing trend in the purchase of Aro's, but the stigma attached still holds me back from ordering. It is the "luck of the draw" process.
Not knowing what I will be getting until they hand me the bag, that‘s my issue.
I'm sure; as group buying evolves it may become the norm in buying Aro's.
I know that there is talk about a visual, video and pics of fish before you buy your next group buy Arowana. I may at that point switch to group buys.
But the majority of you must agree with me that there is no comparison to seeing that Arowana live. Seeing the graceful swimming action that it performs, and how it reacts to you as you stare at it for hours at the LFS.
This same topic is going on in SE Asia as we speak. Their dilemma is weather they should purchase from their LFS or group purchase from Indo. The main debate is it’s a “BLIND BUY”.

As for those looking for the lowest price, yes you may get your Aro, but will you get a high quality, maybe not. There is always someone out there willing to pay the price when it comes to quality. Yes, you will sit there staring at that empty aquarium scratching your head and saying to your self, "Who paid that price for that fish?"

Here's the Aro farmers point of view.
Canada has buyers willing to purchase a group of Aro’s , but we have price issues. We want to pay what Singapore pays for their Aro’s.
Japan, China, Korea, and other SE Asian countries will pay thousand more for an excellent specimen without batting an eye. If you are the Aro farmer who will you call on first, Canada or Japan?
The dividing line is now between buyers of Arowana's and Arowana Connoisseurs. There has to be a supply in the market for all qualities of Arowana’s. There is LOW, MEDIUM, & of course HIGH. A store can’t keep too many of the other. LFS has to strategically decide what they will carry to be competitive.

To sum things up, in a real world, you will never be able to buy a brand new fully loaded BMW M5 @ a brand new fully loaded HONDA Accord price. I don’t care how long you wait.
That is the same with Arowana’s.
Decide what type you want to keep and how much you are willing to pay. As long as there is a JAPANESE & SE Asia market for Arowana’s we will never see a low priced flawless example here. We here in CAN cannot really compete with the YEN pocket book unless you have a lot of $$$ and ready to spend it. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it will cost you more than the $900 or $1200, your willing to pay.
There are a lot of guy’s here in the GTA with deep pockets seeking that flawless specimen be it RED or GOLD at this moment and you all know who you are.
Once you have a few of those around looking to buy, they will bid for it and that Arowana will sell to the highest bidder.

What do I consider Flawless you ask?
I will ask you this; have you ever seen a real Red Aro? One that is not orange, or deep orange in colour, but RED!!! No enhancements, like red lights or computer enhanced or photo shopped.
Pure RED features in natural un-adulterated white light, LIVE or on line. Perfect body shape what ever your preference, Scale sheen and scale formations etc. Then ask yourself; “How many are there here in CAN, and how many did you go through in your search to find one.” Maybe it’s already the show piece in your home aquarium?

Which one R U? :)

I am speechless when I see this. Except I am not a veteran, I am 100% same point as you have, but not over. You covered more than I can say. 2 thumbs up!!!
 

EKen

Super Moderator
FossilFish:
Very well said. I think we are soul mate, too bad I already have a girlfriend.
 

rulaifu

New Member
To sum things up, in a real world, you will never be able to buy a brand new fully loaded BMW M5 @ a brand new fully loaded HONDA Accord price. I don’t care how long you wait.
That is the same with Arowana’s.
Wow I can tell you must be a BM guy. M5, that is always my dream. Plus Brand new, fully loaded, I can resist the temptation.
Eken, rush selling your house, take all my aros. let me get M5 first, I promise driving you around like Toronto, Montreal back and forth for free. Kidding -- Just to make it a little fun, not to be too serious.
 
Last edited:

Kenta

Administrator
Great post Fossilfish!

Just a side note about Panda's marketing strategy, when it comes to their Super reds they do not separate them into A, AA, AAA... they sell all their Super reds as "Super reds"... meaning the fish they send to Japan (where all the top dollar customers are) are the same as the ones they send here to Canada... I have inquired about large confirmed reds or their highest quality reds, but they sell them all at the standard size of 6" to meet the demand for their fish.
 

EKen

Super Moderator
Wow I can tell you must be a BM guy. M5, that is always my dream. Plus Brand new, fully loaded, I can resist the temptation.
Eken, rush selling your house, take all my aros. let me get M5 first, I promise driving you around like Toronto, Montreal back and forth for free. Kidding -- Just to make it a little fun, not to be too serious.

Yes I would...But the problem is you have so many high quality aros, I am not even sure after selling my humble house if I can get enough money to buy all those aros.
 

rulaifu

New Member
Yes I would...But the problem is you have so many high quality aros, I am not even sure after selling my humble house if I can get enough money to buy all those aros.
As a friend, being honest with you, I suggest that you can get something from Fossilfish. He is the man of arowana. Even I don't know him, but I have this feel and I am confident on this. He posts very little, but each of his post tells something that I want to say.
Hope one day I can meet him somewhere exchanging the aro. knowledge as we are so close on most of our understandings on aros.
 

Cirrus

Arowana blogger
When you buy anything from an online retaier you are actually taking part in a group buy.

For example, Amazon.com and Ebay, along with most of their "etailers" make use of what is called "Just in time" purchasing.Thus, they do not place an order for goods until they receive an order from a customer. This allows for low overhead costs and cost savings for the consumer.

Dragonfish.ca is doing much the same with Asian arowana. By acting as a broker, Dragonfish.ca is able to provide fish at much lower prices.

It comes down to the trust you have in a particular farm - their fish and their management.

If you believe a farm to have good quality fish, and if you believe a farm to be owned and operated by an honest and capable management team, then you should be comfortable buying from the farm direct!

In the case of Dragonfish.ca, Mr. Kan is PERSONALY selecting each and every fish sold! He has put his reputation on the line here. Kenta and I have more BIG NEWS coming up in the months to come that will prove this!! :D

Most of what Fossilfish and Rulaifu have had to say is philosophy. Sure, philosophicaly I can feel sorry for the LFS in Eastern Canada who are losing money due to Group Buys. But I am a hobbyist first and foremost. In fact I am a very SERIOUS hobbyist! How serious am I? Well I don't buy my equipment retail either!

For example:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Importing_tenecor_aquariums_Canada.html

Most of the serious aquarists I deal with around the world are much like me in their approach. In fact, we are cooperating amongst OURSELVES to help each other out. Kenta and I are opening up our contacts and experience to help general aquarists who do not have the benefit of our combined 30 + years in the hobby.

If you have the money to spend an extra thousand or two thousand for a Super Red or Xback, then of course, go buy one from an LFS. If such sums of money matter to you, however, then I suggest the group buy method.

As for getting your hands on a high end BMW at a discount price, what if I told you there are in fact ways to do it! ;)
 

xbackgolden

New Member
Great post Fossilfish!

Just a side note about Panda's marketing strategy, when it comes to their Super reds they do not separate them into A, AA, AAA... they sell all their Super reds as "Super reds"... meaning the fish they send to Japan (where all the top dollar customers are) are the same as the ones they send here to Canada... I have inquired about large confirmed reds or their highest quality reds, but they sell them all at the standard size of 6" to meet the demand for their fish.

Acutally Panda, does not export that much now days.
 
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