Is Certificate That Important !!! This is how I feel, any one want to comment

[str8CHINAmon]

Hello I'm new to this forum and still learning how to use it, because I'm not good with computer. I've been a aro hobbyist for a while, and have bought many aro in my time, and I have many different certificate from many different farms. The problem is that quiet a few of the aros that I have did NOT turn out the way I thought it would turn out, and when I go back to where I bought the fish at my LFS, they tell me it is most likely my fault and also tell me that I don't know how to take care of it ( for example water quality ). I know for a fact that it can't be of the water because I run all my aquarium to a central system, and I have a couple that turn out really nice, magazine quality type fish. The ones that I feel is bad quality does not look red Now discovering this forum I feel that I have a great chance to get to the bottom of this. I came up with a few theories.

1) LFS bought fish thinking that it is good quality but in reality it's not
I:- farm could have mix breed like gold and red and gave a certificate
that say that it is red
II:- farm know that the fish is bad quality and sell for top $$$ so LFS
think that it is good quality
III:- farm needs to get rid of the bad quality for the maximum they can
get for it
IV:- farms sold cheap fish to LFS that was fed HORMONES and when it
loses color or it dies the blame is put on the hobbyist
VI:- farms ship a few good ones and a few bads ones

2) LFS bought fish knowing that it is not good quality but told advantage
that this is still a new fish and not that many have knowledge about
the fish ( basically open season to rip people off )
I:- LFS bought fishes at the cheapest prices like hundreds and sold it
for thousands
II:- LFS made a deal with farms to give them certificate saying that
the fish is such and such
III:- LFS has made fake certificates or requested fake ones
IV:- LFS screen potential customer to see how much they can rip them
off
3)Magazine pictures is not 100% true
I:- Camera tricks
II:- when comparing the fish certificate name and seeing it in magazine
it does not look the same

I feel that there is a lot of shady things with this business. I believe that the mind of a business man is to cut corners to maximize the potential profit. And if everyone wants only the good quality one, what's gonna happen to all the ones that no one wants!!! For these reason I do not believe what the certificate, LFS, and farms say about the fish. I only believe what I see with my eyes in person. Does any one have any info or experience they have encounter in this industry, that they can share with me, I'm just tired of being ripped-off and not getting what I want for the amount that I paid. ANY ONE CARE TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE OF ANY SITUATION THAT YOU ENCOUNTER THAT YOU FEEL IS SHADY ABOUT THE INDUSTRY OR THE BUSINESS. PLEASE DO NOT MENTION ANY NAME BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE DELETE FROM THE FORUM, BECAUSE I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THING ARE THIS WAY! Any one that feels differently PLEASE post so we can debate on this matter!

 

[h.l_nathan]

Its not the farm or LFS but its the person that picks the fish. That includes you as a buyer. there are some people that buys lower quality aros, but ended up with a show quality fish. Yet some high quality dont turn out as expected, but most show aros are given NAN pills and sunbath before pictures and shows to enhance the color.
To me I think its all the same certificate or not. If you chose that aro than you have to live with its defect and try not to expect your aros to turn out like its show quality.

 

[sudi817]

For me an authentic ceritificate is better than not having a certificate at all. It's a proof of ownership and it gives me some piece of mind knowing that what I paid for with my hard earned $$$ to a TRUSTED and REPUTABLE LFS is valid and the fish can be identified based on their claims. Would I buy a house, a car or a luxury watch with out an authentic papers/certificate? of course no.

If the Aro does not turn out to be like some of the Photoshopped Aro's that the LFS claims should look like on magazines, then the LFS reputation will be at stake even if they blame it on the Farm because the LFS were responsible for buying and selling these Aro's to us. Eventually they will loose their good clients and maybe their business due to their irresponsible practices.

I believe that good or bad..... word gets around.

- Just my two cents -

 

[carcrazy]

I agree, you have to just live with what you've got. My aro isn't nearly as shiny or golden as some that I have seen here and he doesn't seem to be growing as quickly as I would have hoped. The water is fine as my rays are happy. The aro is still nice so I am happy with him and he should develop more as time goes on. I think I need a little more patience.

At the same time, if a fish is advertised as a high quality red and it doesn't develop that way, I would be quite unhappy. I guess there are no guarantees when there are so many variables involved.

 

[arl]

At the size aros are sold by most LFS and online stores, abt. 5", it is very hard to distinguish a good quality aro from average aro. You just have to take the word of your seller, and what's on the cert. and you're right there is nothing special about the certificate anybody can change the certificate to a "golden head" or other high end aro names for a higher price. So it all boils down to how trust worthy is your seller or the supplier of your seller. If you really want a proven high end aro you'll have to spend more and get ones that are about 10+" and showing all that you'll ever want in an aro. You're buying the aro the way it looks now and not for what it will hopefully become.

 

[Kenta]

A lot of depends on clever marketing... some farms come up with clever brand names and people go nutso over them... and then everyone has them and the trend dies out and another kind takes over. Of course every farm will showcase their best showfish to represent their entire stock, but in reality there is no way every fish from a farm will end up top quality.

It makes it even harder because juveniles are super bland and takes a trained eye to spot a good potential baby. But even after that, how you care for the fish that will also depend on its outcome. Reds are by far the hardest to raise, thats why confirmed adult reds are so expensive.

Don't feel like youre being ripped off... some places undoubtedly photoshop pics...

 

[EKen]

If you think that by choosing an aro from the little stock that an LFS has, and that one fish would turn out as nice as the pictures in the magazines, you may be a bit naive...

Fishes on a magazine cover are like Top Model girls... Chosen between hundreds, if not thousands. Of course your fish could turn out nice, but really, what are the chances they turn out that nice.

So don't feel ripped off bro, raising an arowana is like mariage, hope for the best, expect the worst...

 

[Yuppa]

my opinion is :

You NEED a cert.. Illegal without!!

what the cert says.. open to interpretation..
I believe a red is a red, a rtg is a rtg and a xback is a xback..
all the "sub catagories" and "labels" are just that.. people trying to make their fish sound cool or more special.

when you buy a red, expect that after 2-3 years it will be orange.

now correct me here, but i also believe that most gold aro's, xback and rtg alike, are naturally blue base.. heck even most reds are blue base.. I laugh when i see emerald aro and its pretty blue actually, or gold base aro and its still blue.. anyways, thats another rant, and i admit it is nice when you get to see a *real* purple or gold base gold..

my point is, before all the names and labels were invented, there was only red and gold..

ok so there is clear difference between rtg and xback, unfortunately most "gold" aro were pond together.. as a result most if not all RTG on market are xback cross..

so how important is the cert?

you must have it to legally own your fish. it can be taken from you without cert. fish and wildlife for your country will seize the fish if you cannot provide cert or scan a chip #. unfortunately I have seen that happen many times. If no cert, but still scans a chip, thats ok.. chip proves its farm bred.
if no cert, and no chip is found on scan.. probably wild aro, or backyard bred and sold without CITES.. either way, illegal.

If you just want the cert to prove that your fish is "ultima/ultimate/super/violet/purple" or whatever.. well, I honestly think thats being a little silly.. I mean no offence or disrespect to the farms that label their superior quality fish with superior titles. I just like to keep things basic.

 

[str8CHINAmon]

Its not the farm or LFS but its the person that picks the fish. That includes you as a buyer. there are some people that buys lower quality aros, but ended up with a show quality fish. Yet some high quality dont turn out as expected, but most show aros are given NAN pills and sunbath before pictures and shows to enhance the color.
To me I think its all the same certificate or not. If you chose that aro than you have to live with its defect and try not to expect your aros to turn out like its show quality.

how can it be the buyer when the consumer doesn't have as much opinion as the LFS and the farm. For example, LFS tell you that it is such and such name and then show you the certificate and then show you a book with the fish brand. To say that it is the consumer fault sound like they are not willing to take responsibility or they are not advertising truthfully. It is the sales person duty to inform the consumer what they are getting into. Now how would you feel if you buy a ferrarri and paid a ferrarri prices but got something that turn out to be a honda engine. Would you still feel that it is your fault. It's the sales person duty to inform the consumers truthfully, if noy it is considered as false advertisement. I am living with the fish but I still feel cheated. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why you would say that it is the consumers fault. Imagine you being sold something the sales person tells you that it is genuine, so you buy it after a while of studying it and researching it, and it turn out not being what it is suppose to be. Tell me how you would feel and why you would feel that it is your own fault.

 

[str8CHINAmon]

For me an authentic ceritificate is better than not having a certificate at all. It's a proof of ownership and it gives me some piece of mind knowing that what I paid for with my hard earned $$$ to a TRUSTED and REPUTABLE LFS is valid and the fish can be identified based on their claims. Would I buy a house, a car or a luxury watch with out an authentic papers/certificate? of course no.

If the Aro does not turn out to be like some of the Photoshopped Aro's that the LFS claims should look like on magazines, then the LFS reputation will be at stake even if they blame it on the Farm because the LFS were responsible for buying and selling these Aro's to us. Eventually they will loose their good clients and maybe their business due to their irresponsible practices.

I believe that good or bad..... word gets around.

- Just my two cents -

I felt the same way too at first, but what if you buy the fish and you felt scammed in the end. What are you going to do then? Just from this thread alone people are already saying that it is the consumers fault, that I don't know how to pick the fish!!!

 

[str8CHINAmon]

For me an authentic ceritificate is better than not having a certificate at all. It's a proof of ownership and it gives me some piece of mind knowing that what I paid for with my hard earned $$$ to a TRUSTED and REPUTABLE LFS is valid and the fish can be identified based on their claims. Would I buy a house, a car or a luxury watch with out an authentic papers/certificate? of course no.

If the Aro does not turn out to be like some of the Photoshopped Aro's that the LFS claims should look like on magazines, then the LFS reputation will be at stake even if they blame it on the Farm because the LFS were responsible for buying and selling these Aro's to us. Eventually they will loose their good clients and maybe their business due to their irresponsible practices.

I believe that good or bad..... word gets around.

- Just my two cents -

REPUTABLE LFS your funny Because I don't think that exist. The reputation is protected by law it seem, because anyone that bad mouth a company gets sued for slander. For example if some one say something bad about a LFS in this forum, what happens next. The post gets deleted, then what that person that has the complaint has to personally tell everyone the scam. I bet you that person will just end up sitting there and try to be happy that he just took it up the A.

 

[str8CHINAmon]

I agree, you have to just live with what you've got. My aro isn't nearly as shiny or golden as some that I have seen here and he doesn't seem to be growing as quickly as I would have hoped. The water is fine as my rays are happy. The aro is still nice so I am happy with him and he should develop more as time goes on. I think I need a little more patience.

At the same time, if a fish is advertised as a high quality red and it doesn't develop that way, I would be quite unhappy. I guess there are no guarantees when there are so many variables involved.

Ok, once again you telling my I should be happy to take it up the A. And telling me that it is my fault that mu wallet got rape because I put myself in a dark alley!!

 

[str8CHINAmon]

At the size aros are sold by most LFS and online stores, abt. 5", it is very hard to distinguish a good quality aro from average aro. You just have to take the word of your seller, and what's on the cert. and you're right there is nothing special about the certificate anybody can change the certificate to a "golden head" or other high end aro names for a higher price. So it all boils down to how trust worthy is your seller or the supplier of your seller. If you really want a proven high end aro you'll have to spend more and get ones that are about 10+" and showing all that you'll ever want in an aro. You're buying the aro the way it looks now and not for what it will hopefully become.

I agree with you, but how can you trust someone that only wants your money, and once you buy it's not the LFS problem but tell you that it's your fault. And if you sell it back you have to take a lost. ( TAKING IT UP THE A (0) AND HAVING TO LIKE IT TO )

 

[str8CHINAmon]

A lot of depends on clever marketing... some farms come up with clever brand names and people go nutso over them... and then everyone has them and the trend dies out and another kind takes over. Of course every farm will showcase their best showfish to represent their entire stock, but in reality there is no way every fish from a farm will end up top quality.

It makes it even harder because juveniles are super bland and takes a trained eye to spot a good potential baby. But even after that, how you care for the fish that will also depend on its outcome. Reds are by far the hardest to raise, thats why confirmed adult reds are so expensive.

Don't feel like youre being ripped off... some places undoubtedly photoshop pics...

i LOVE my fish no matter what they turn into, but the issue is that mostly every LFS I've been to will give me the brand name, with the cert, then tell me that it is my fault! That is what gets my blood boiling!!! And to be on this forum and there is people that say it is my fault makes me wonder if they are LFS or Farm members, because a hobbyist and a consumer will NOT think that way.

 

[str8CHINAmon]

If you think that by choosing an aro from the little stock that an LFS has, and that one fish would turn out as nice as the pictures in the magazines, you may be a bit naive...

Fishes on a magazine cover are like Top Model girls... Chosen between hundreds, if not thousands. Of course your fish could turn out nice, but really, what are the chances they turn out that nice.

So don't feel ripped off bro, raising an arowana is like mariage, hope for the best, expect the worst...

I choose from when the shipment first come in and I know that those are not the best in the world. I feel that from each shipment only a few are good quality and the rest is garbage. And Im sure that the farm would keep the really nice ones for themself for breeding stock. They will only sell those really nice ones to Japan and Taiwan for price range that I dont believe anyone in Canada can afford ( Im talking about minimum $40000 at least for one fish ) Ive only seen one place that has quality that could even come close to the magazine, but I still believe that may not be the nicest in the world.

 

[str8CHINAmon]

If you think that by choosing an aro from the little stock that an LFS has, and that one fish would turn out as nice as the pictures in the magazines, you may be a bit naive...

Fishes on a magazine cover are like Top Model girls... Chosen between hundreds, if not thousands. Of course your fish could turn out nice, but really, what are the chances they turn out that nice.

So don't feel ripped off bro, raising an arowana is like mariage, hope for the best, expect the worst...

oh yeah I forgot to mention that if the LFS tell you the cert say that it is this fish from the magazine, and Im only willing to pay for that fish quality. So of course that is what I expect. If someone sell you a ferrari, you expect a ferrari!

 

[str8CHINAmon]

my opinion is :

You NEED a cert.. Illegal without!!

what the cert says.. open to interpretation..
I believe a red is a red, a rtg is a rtg and a xback is a xback..
all the "sub catagories" and "labels" are just that.. people trying to make their fish sound cool or more special.

when you buy a red, expect that after 2-3 years it will be orange.

now correct me here, but i also believe that most gold aro's, xback and rtg alike, are naturally blue base.. heck even most reds are blue base.. I laugh when i see emerald aro and its pretty blue actually, or gold base aro and its still blue.. anyways, thats another rant, and i admit it is nice when you get to see a *real* purple or gold base gold..

my point is, before all the names and labels were invented, there was only red and gold..

ok so there is clear difference between rtg and xback, unfortunately most "gold" aro were pond together.. as a result most if not all RTG on market are xback cross..

so how important is the cert?

you must have it to legally own your fish. it can be taken from you without cert. fish and wildlife for your country will seize the fish if you cannot provide cert or scan a chip #. unfortunately I have seen that happen many times. If no cert, but still scans a chip, thats ok.. chip proves its farm bred.
if no cert, and no chip is found on scan.. probably wild aro, or backyard bred and sold without CITES.. either way, illegal.

If you just want the cert to prove that your fish is "ultima/ultimate/super/violet/purple" or whatever.. well, I honestly think thats being a little silly.. I mean no offence or disrespect to the farms that label their superior quality fish with superior titles. I just like to keep things basic.

so if it has a chip# then how important is the cert then! To me it is just a paper of lies except where it came from. And how illegal is it if it has a chip# and that alone prove that is was captive breed. When I first started the hobby the cert shows me the quality it is suppose to be, because I didnt know how to pick the fish when it is small back then. But now after countless fish that I bought myself and seen fish that friends have bought and watch them all grow up. Im more confident in my ability to pick the right fish, especially reds. I feel that picking the right gold is harder, because they all seem the same, when they are small. Just until recently I seen ones that look different from the ones that look different from the ones I normally see at LFS. I may start collecting gold soon. Now I dont even care about the cert no more as long as they show me that it has a chip# then it is good enough for me.

 

[T1KARMANN]

if the truth be known the cert means nothing its just something to frame and put on your wall

its the article 10 thats important

without the article 10 a shop is not legal to sell the arowana or even display it in a shop

how many of you have the article 10/yellow bit of paper if you don't have it you are braking the law if you sell your aro at a later date

anyone can import asian aros with a licence then they need to apply for the artical 10 which allows them to sell the aros

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1789

 

[FOSSILFISH]

As for me, I would never buy an arow without proper documents. You can't have one without the other. No Cert, No Buy, simple. Plus it's against CITES to sell aro without the cert.
Has anyone heard of LFS replacing certs with their own so they can protect the identity of the farms they buy from.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Would you still buy if the cert that comes from the LFS for the aro you are buying was not the original?

 

[T1KARMANN]

As for me, I would never buy an arow without proper documents. You can't have one without the other. No Cert, No Buy, simple. Plus it's against CITES to sell aro without the cert.
Has anyone heard of LFS replacing certs with their own so they can protect the identity of the farms they buy from.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Would you still buy if the cert that comes from the LFS for the aro you are buying was not the original?

you don't understand what I'm saying hear the cert means NOTHING it has nothing to do with CITES or it doesn't prove the fish has been legally imported

do you think CITES know anything about VIP reds red splendour or any other name the farm wants to put on the cert

the artical 10 is a leagle bit of paper that shows the imports name the chip numberthe type of aro normaly gold arowana for RTG and xback red arowana for all red types none of the fancy names the farms give the aro

hear is a artical 10 but its yellow if you dont have this your aro is not allowed to be sold in a shop