Where should Dragonfish go from here?

[Cirrus]

First, a little bit of history about Dragonfish and this site...

As some people on this forum already know, Dragonfish Canada is undergoing change. Originally it was started by Cirrus (who did the first three imports and helped out with another); then Kenta came along and helped out with the next 4 imports while Cirrus was out of the country. Then Cirrus came back and did more imports with Kenta. Now Kole, Lo Sai, and Marius have joined the group. In many ways so have other people across Canada, including everyone who has bought one or more fish from us. The idea of Dragonfish as a group buy club is growing. Recent sales have included other exotic fish, aquarium supplies, acrylic aquariums, and even 50 Fluval FX5 filters!

Ironically, arowanaclub.ca was born as a direct result of an online spat Cirrus had with the ArowanaCanada owners, so it could be said that some good came of it. Likewise, Kole, Lo Sai, and Marius joining Dragonfish Canada is pretty much a direct result of Arovillage starting up online. Thus, the pattern seems to be, whenever new competition emerges online to challenge the group buy method, Dragonfish Canada somehows undergoes change and grows stronger.

But where to now? Is Dragonfish set to become a true business? Up till now it has really been the (rather haphazard) actions of a few hobbyists; yet the potential for larger business is there. Cirrus thinks it best if the Dragonfish entity remain a collection of autonomous hobbyists each doing their own thing under the umbrella of the Dragonfish name; thus, those hobbyists who get involved, whoever they are, should be out to offset their hobbyist costs and not earn a living off of Dragonfish. I kind of like the possible motto for
Dragonfish being "Group buys organized by hobbyists for hobbyists to provide the best possible quality for the lowest possible price."

Thoughts? Opinions? All you people who have bought fish with/from Dragonfish...what would you like to see happen with the organization?

 

[iamfrontosa]

hi,
First off, because of this site and the group buy i m able to get into asian arowana at all. i started off with HBPGS and then PR. I am happy with both fish for their quality, and exceptional price. So, I would like to thank you and kenta for that.
As far as this organization go, i do like it the way it is. I do like the group buy organized buy this site, although I don't think I will ever get another one due to the limit in space, but the group buy should still be there for other hobbyists.

One thing that i question is, who finance this website? do you get $ from advertisement? I sure would like to see this website going the way it is..

That is just my $0.02. Not too sure if i address your concerns. But you have a happy member here.

 

[Kenta]

The site is paid for by the money we have saved from the group buys.... there are no advertisements now, so no money from that.

I have visions for this site, still working on some of it though

 

[Marius]

From the very begining I've been admiring you Theo for initiating this and making possible that people here would get good quality Dragons at a very decent price. It was a deliciously sweet start of a community of hobbyists that you led to something more than they had available here and they could actually access something more than was offered by the local retailers ..at the very known prices. Now, hopefully this is not just a nostalgic try to get that feeling back, because from what I am concernced it is still here.

I joined Dragonfish because of the private discussions about the necesity of giving more cohesion to a "band of brothers" interested in one and the same thing: enriching the hobby as it is and fellow hobbyists with more good quality stock and provinding a certain and reliable link between them and the farmers.

However, please don't get lost in the nostalgia guys. When I meant cohesion I really meant what I said. What has been done so far to a "group buy" order type of thing cannot function anymore, not as long as Dragonfish is not the only type of "organization" out there doing this. It has come to the point, as in every other aspect of life, where some take it to the business level. I am not suggesting that Dragonfish will be our income for our days, I am simply talking about cohesion and organization skills. One cannot compete with legitimate businesses out there doing only the thing Dragonfish has done from the begining: group orders. There's choice available now and like it or not Dragonfish brought high expectations and established a certain level of "dragon culture", but at the same time I am told over and over again that people are not willing to just pay based on a reputation built so far when, as I mentioned, there's something available at the same price, coming from someone else.

Kenta, Jay might be a hobbyist to you and me, but he's also a very pragmatic businessman. He knows people that are hesitating to drop the money - from whatever reasons might be - once they see the quality of the fish and how nice and healthy they swim in the tank then they are willing to join the family.

What is our interest here, further the access to Dragons for the rest of the fellow fish crazed people, or be afraid of a social label here. What's wrong with being a legitimized business?!? We will assume our risks in bringing the stock, keeping it, nurturing it, trying to further improve the quality of the available fish ...and all that at the most affordable prices. What's wrong with that, can someone enlighten me?

I've gone through my share of hardships in finding good, reliable sources. Sometimes I succeded, otherwise I got into clashes with local "hobbyists" ...bottom line is, if we want Dragonfish to keep being the reliable-fellow-hobbyists-led organisation that has pioneered the Dragon marketplace in Canada we need to do a little bit more than it has been done before.


A very raw example. A new hobbyist will most likely buy from a display already in front of his eyes instead of doing what was pioneered so far ...just because IT IS available and ONE HAS A CHOICE. Now, hobbyist or not, can one imagine me, or Theo, or Kenta, or Kole putting money from my own pocket to maintain the good name of Dragonfish just because?!? I need to have an operation ready to take the kickback from a loss, or a couple losses ...or to be able to further educate and introduce fellow hobbyists into the wonderful world of Dragon keeping. Did I leave anything out?!?

 

[Marius]

A very raw example. A new hobbyist will most likely buy from a display already in front of his eyes instead of doing what was pioneered so far ...just because IT IS available and ONE HAS A CHOICE. Now, hobbyist or not, can one imagine me, or Theo, or Kenta, or Kole putting money from my own pocket to maintain the good name of Dragonfish just because?!? I need to have an operation ready to take the kickback from a loss, or a couple losses ...or to be able to further educate and introduce fellow hobbyists into the wonderful world of Dragon keeping. Did I leave anything out?!?

..oh poop! I left Derek out ..Lo Sai. Sorry bud.

 

[Cirrus]

Yes, the whole operation is ready to go up to the next level. Determining how that level will look is the challenge. The key will be to organize ourselves efficiently. Lots for us to think about and PM about.

I think it important to have at least portions of this debate and discussion open to the the hobbyist public; if nothing else, it allows everyone some insight into how we evolve as a team and how Dragonfish evolves as a business.

 

[iamfrontosa]

I totally agree with Marius here. I mean why should you guys put money out of your own pockets because of the 3rd party mishap (ie: Westjet incident) ? If you can take Dragonfish to the next level and making, at least, enough income to offset the loss & website fees, I think you guys should go for it.

 

[RTG_Gerry]

There is nothing wrong with turning this into a business, but you will lose people because of it. If you do turn it into a business, the risk you incur will be much greater, but if you're established customers will find you.

Group buys are a grassroots activity, and it typically is not about making money. It very much is about eliminating a middleman who typically makes a fat profit because they do the leg work required to import the fish and because of limited supply.

Some will see you as becoming the middleman, which is correct, and someone may pop out of a gopherhole somewhere and start doing group buys simply to avoid paying more for the same fish to you.

In Canada, there would be a very limited customer base for arowanas and I'm not so sure you can run a for-profit business in a niche market which is already somewhat competitive.

I'm not trying to run the idea down, just throwing some ideas out there for thought.

 

[Cirrus]

Good points RTG Gerry. But then the Asian arowana "business" is just part of what is happening. Recent imports/deals have included exotic hybrid fish from Thailand, driftwood, acrylic aquariums, high powered filters, exotic Indonesian fish...and of course Asian arowanas! Thus, the activities overseen by everyone involved in Dragonfish are expanding, along with the interests and energy of all the people involved in the operation. And now Montreal operations are set to start up in earnest.

I think the group buy concept is set to remain a key part of the Asian arowana operation; for those of you across Canada who do not have access to Asian arowana in pet stores, or for whom the local market is so small that you can not organize a locally based group buy, then that is where Dragonfish Canada can play a helpful role. Perhaps the group buys will become more of a semi-annual event?

On the other hand, there is a demand in Canada for fish to be seen and bought in person; there are people out there willing to spend a bit more or drive to a larger city just to be able to buy a particular fish in person; also, there are people out there looking for something "different" or who are looking to set up an aro com, people who basically need the help of a trusted broker to help out in getting fish. There is another place Dragonfish can help out. By having a stock of fish on hand, as well as by opening up our contacts in Asia, we can provide a useful service I think.

The main point is, Dragonfish Canada is becoming more than the actions of a single person or even small group of people; it is on the cusp of becoming larger and more diverse. Now, we just need to stay true to our hobbyist roots and keep our integrity as we grow...then everything will be fine I think.

 

[JMorash]

From an East Coaster, who has done too many years of the group buy thing on my end for other fish. It's exhausting after while, there's a point where that satisfaction of supporting the hobby and providing good people with good fish and spending too much of your own time and money to bring these fish in cross over. Unfortunately at those points you have to think long and weigh out the pros and cons.

If you guys make it into a business and charge a little extra, I'll still buy from you. I wouldn't mind seeing Arowana coming from different farms though. Panda offers great fish, but there's some nice fish that come from other farms haha.

As long as the fish are still high quality, I'm happy.

Thanks,

Justin Morash

 

[Kenta]

All good points and opinions

Personally, I am not interested at all in making it a business. Dragonfish started out as a hobby. I work two jobs upwards of 60 hours a week 6 days a week. Add up work, training and other obligations and i have very little time for anything... fishkeeping is what keeps me sane and once it becomes work i will shoot myself. I cannot afford to invest more time or money into this, I am already at my limits as to how much effort i have invested into dragonfish.

 

[lo sai]

I say go for it and make it into a business, it would be a shame to see TheoÂ’s hard work in sourcing and all his resources go to waste.. if the business fails dragonfish could always go back to group buy method. We will never know the full potential if we donÂ’t try.

 

[azn888dna]

i agree with u lo sai !!! go ahead!!!

 

[xenon240]

Kenta/Theo, I think you guys should continue your venture with group buys through out the year and not turn it into a business. Here are my reasons:

- turning it into a business would inevitably mean higher prices for hobbyist, for example business license's; GST added to orders; risk associated with maintaining available stock; more tanks/equipment to maintain, etc.

- I also agree that participants of group buys should not take advantage of the competitive pricing that we get from Kenta/Theo as re-sellers. Here in Alberta I have seen hobbyist post ads in Kijiji for 8 inch RTG and Super Reds from Panda (most likely purchased on Group buys from Kenta) for almost twice the cost. There should be limits on quantity per individual.

- there is no LFS in Alberta that carries quality AROS, the closest is the Riverfront which has some large and medium AROS but no where near the quality we get from these Group Buys.

 

[Cirrus]

Dragonfish...a collection of autonomous hobbyists each doing their own thing under the umbrella of the Dragonfish name."

The above quote would seem to be where we are as a group right now. As we grow (Cirrus, Kenta, Kole, Marius, Derek and sometimes others), the purchase and sale model will undergo change. Now, we are increasingly buying fish on our own personal accounts, according to our own personal interests, and reselling the fish on our own. This new direction has evolved out of the need for us to have stock on hand to counter other on-line retailers who are popping up trying to take advantage of the online arowana market we have patiently assembled over the years. Ultimately, because we are hobbyists first and not real businessmen, we should be able to handily beat any competition on both price and quality. It all comes down to the low margin we are willing to charge. How low will we go? Pretty darn low!

We are already having to pay taxes on any profit we make, so no change there. The ability to write off the expenses of aro keeping is certainly welcome.

Do we mind that others are reselling at a profit the arows we sell online or privately? Not at all! In fact, that is great! It allows the people who purchase fish from/with us to cover their costs over time too!

In future, we will probably have fewer group buys each year - maybe one or two, whatever the market wants. At the same time, we plan on having a WIDE range of stock on hand at ALL times. We can do this because as a group of hobbyists, our fish stock is essentially our hobby stock. Thus, if the fish don't sell right away, we get to raise them up/grow them out longer. We are happy with this and are even looking forward to it!

In conclusion, what is Dragonfish Canada? For now, I'd say a "buyer's club" would be the best description. If you have bought a fish through Dragonfish Canada you are actually a part of it.

Stay tuned for some really exciting developments in the coming weeks and months...