LFS can't be trusted anymore?

protoxeno

protoxeno

New Member
Not sure about the LFS in your area or not, but mostly the ones in my area lies like no tommorrow and will always lie to get you to buy something. For example, the LFS in my area, actually 2 of them, when I first started the aro hobby I asked how much for their RTG, anyone guess? $1800 for it. I said F**k you in chinese and think I am not welcome there anymore.

Ok thats prob not dishonestly but mainly super over charging and taking advantage of a noob right? ok ok. So when I was keeping a 12" oscar in a 30g, I had no idea the tank is too small, however my mom like this albino cat fish thats about 10". I asked LFS owner will they fight since my oscar is kinda aggressive. So, a few days later cat fish dies.

Ok ok still might not consider lying right? Another LFS, theres this gold fish that has over WAY over pop eye disease and you can see the gold fish's eye is covered in a giant white cloud, seeing its green and red veins. I asked LFS owner is it sick? They say no, its a pop eye gold fish. Same LFS, I see them adding food dye to dye their fish, I asked what you adding? They said medicine. FISH MEDICINE don't come in a freaking 20g bucket!

Not done yet, they praise their aro like no tomorrow either, their aros had their own store name, like Lucky red or power red and some other branding. All those 10" red that they trying to sell for over $2000 has NO potential and NO way to trace where the fish came from. From some unknown farm or they tell you their 'special privileged agent' get to pick first out of all the farms so that gurantees good quality. What a load of crap don't you think?

And this guy who is by the way offical VIP dealer in my area, said they will get the new VIP grand champ from aquarama from god knows when in his store to show off. Think hes been saying that for years and years. Same thing about their new stock too. He posted a pick of his prized VIP full gold XB and say its so worth the money when he saw I posted how its not really worth the money. His xb is 8 months old, full pearls, moderate gold tone, half 5th lvl shine. Think thats worth $3000 bucks? He say there are aros thats late developer, well why the hell would I buy at more than DOUBLE the price to get a late bloomer eh?

Ok, now to the biggest Canadian franchise, they got teenagers telling me how they can't help me and there is no cure of HITH disease. How when I bought my tank their manager just oops slip in freaking replacement plans that cost extra $200 bucks on their heaters and pumps. NOT to mention they are selling eheims pro 2080 for $700 + tax?

Whats your LFS neightmare?
 
Honestly I don't have any nightmares, I choose to not support the big box stores whatsoever. Our nationla Big Box fish store here in Richmond has had the same, I believe it's a super red for sale for $2500, the thing is only maybe 6 inches with very very ratty fins. Gee no one has bought it:eek: I find most of the big stores charge way way to much. I was shocked when I went into another national box chain for pets and noticed that they sell their Rena Xp3 filters for $229, I got mine at my lfs for $145. Basically as a serious hobbyist it pays to know where the good places to go are. The guy I go to (Roger's Aquatics) is pretty much the only place I go now, it's a family run business and I find Roger to be very very honest. If I ask him a question that he doesn't know the answer to he will simply say that he doesn't or go look in a book to find that answer.
 
Oh sure, I've had my issues with LFS in the past. Dishonesty does creep up once in a while, but then that can cut two ways! When I worked in an aquarium store as a teenager I remember the time I accidentally messed up at the till and gave a guy close to $100 cash PLUS his merchandise (which was close to another $100). So he basically got paid to take stuff! He stood there for a minute, gave me a weird look, and then hustled out of the store. Of course I figured out my mistake 10 seconds later and went running outside but he had taken off in a hurry for sure.

And then there are the customers who'll buy and return stuff for seemingly no reason, look for any loop hole they can to get something for free, etc. etc.

I know LFS are just trying to make a living, so I don't have any problem with that.

When they cross over to being downright dishonest, well that is not right.

Concerning the Asian arowana side of the hobby, I think hobbyists owe it to eachother to share the knowledge and try to help one another out. Hopefully we can do that without hurting the LFS's, since as kids most of us get our start in the aquarium hobby by going to an LFS :)
 
My worst experience with an local pet store is the one I used to work at. We had a no kill shelter that delt with alot of cross bred dogs. Some of the girls there were lying to people about what the crosses were just to make their sales look good. So instead of getting a 30lb dog like what the owners were expecting, they would land up with 100lb dogs.

One of the reasons I left the pet industry is because I can't deal with dishonesty. And in this trade its the animals life at stake which alot of part time high school kids can't grasp. I worked where I worked to promote my hobbies and enlighten people.
 
taureandragon76 said:
Honestly I don't have any nightmares, I choose to not support the big box stores whatsoever. Our Big National Fish Chain Store here in Richmond has had the same, I believe it's a super red for sale for $2500, the thing is only maybe 6 inches with very very ratty fins. Gee no one has bought it:eek: I find most of the big stores charge way way to much. I was shocked when I went into another national Big Box store for pets and noticed that they sell their Rena Xp3 filters for $229, I got mine at my lfs for $145. Basically as a serious hobbyist it pays to know where the good places to go are. The guy I go to (Roger's Aquatics) is pretty much the only place I go now, it's a family run business and I find Roger to be very very honest. If I ask him a question that he doesn't know the answer to he will simply say that he doesn't or go look in a book to find that answer.
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Exactly. I don't know why the Big National chain stores still carry asian arowana as they have little idea how to care for them.
I have seen a crossback go from being a gorgeous fish upon arrival and weeks later, it's fins are all clamped and ratty, and becomes terribly skinny from lack of appetite. Currently, a Big Box store in Mississauga has a bunch of greens in. All of them have ripped up fins and look disgusting.
Privately owned stores with honest owners are what I go for.
 
protoxeno said:
Not sure about the LFS in your area or not, but mostly the ones in my area lies like no tommorrow and will always lie to get you to buy something. For example, the LFS in my area, actually 2 of them, when I first started the aro hobby I asked how much for their RTG, anyone guess? $1800 for it. I said F**k you in chinese and think I am not welcome there anymore.

Ok thats prob not dishonestly but mainly super over charging and taking advantage of a noob right? ok ok. So when I was keeping a 12" oscar in a 30g, I had no idea the tank is too small, however my mom like this albino cat fish thats about 10". I asked LFS owner will they fight since my oscar is kinda aggressive. So, a few days later cat fish dies.

Ok ok still might not consider lying right? Another LFS, theres this gold fish that has over WAY over pop eye disease and you can see the gold fish's eye is covered in a giant white cloud, seeing its green and red veins. I asked LFS owner is it sick? They say no, its a pop eye gold fish. Same LFS, I see them adding food dye to dye their fish, I asked what you adding? They said medicine. FISH MEDICINE don't come in a freaking 20g bucket!

Not done yet, they praise their aro like no tomorrow either, their aros had their own store name, like Lucky red or power red and some other branding. All those 10" red that they trying to sell for over $2000 has NO potential and NO way to trace where the fish came from. From some unknown farm or they tell you their 'special privileged agent' get to pick first out of all the farms so that gurantees good quality. What a load of crap don't you think?

And this guy who is by the way offical VIP dealer in my area, said they will get the new VIP grand champ from aquarama from god knows when in his store to show off. Think hes been saying that for years and years. Same thing about their new stock too. He posted a pick of his prized VIP full gold XB and say its so worth the money when he saw I posted how its not really worth the money. His xb is 8 months old, full pearls, moderate gold tone, half 5th lvl shine. Think thats worth $3000 bucks? He say there are aros thats late developer, well why the hell would I buy at more than DOUBLE the price to get a late bloomer eh?

Ok, now to the big national Big Fish Box franchise, they got teenagers telling me how they can't help me and there is no cure of HITH disease. How when I bought my tank their manager just oops slip in freaking replacement plans that cost extra $200 bucks on their heaters and pumps. NOT to mention they are selling eheims pro 2080 for $700 + tax?

Whats your LFS neightmare?
Click to expand...

Greetings all, before i start with my point of view, let me just introduce myself, I am from Singapore and have close business relationships because of the volume I purchase with all of the top pro shops and several of the more famous arowana farms in Singapore and we have acutally spoke about this matter extensively.

One big reason for the unhappiness of many overseas hobbyist is that the prices quoted to them is high and because of the internet, they realise that the retail prices in Singapore is significantly lower compared to what you have to pay in your area and having to make do with fishes which are not as nice as what the local hobbyist are getting. This has resulted in many hobbyist like some of yourselves doing group buys for asian arowana from local farms.

However, before we can start accusing your distributors from profiteering, U guys got to understand, the import prices for such fishes are similar to that of high grade koi and Stingrays and are in the region of at least 1000 USD and above for a G1 red or Malaysian golden. This does not include shipping charges which can be rather expensive too. And as we all know, livestock are perishables which at death, cease to have any value. On top of that, the LFS who take in these fishes also have their overheads to meet, their staff to pay in order to continue providing the hobbyist with the services they require. If you factor in this risk which the LFS owners face when importing these fishes, it will correspond nicely to the prices you get quoted. (Of course there are assholes even in Singapore who try to cheat so we are not talking about these people). After all, who will want to do business if its not worth his while.

Also just to add, it is quite unlikely that the VIP championship winners will be seen in Canada considering the high price that the Japanese and Chinese are willing to pay for those fishes.
 
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XBackGolden:
Good post.

All the others:
Not to be a little prick, but I thought name dropping was not allowed.
 
I'm pretty picky about who I trust when it comes to fish. There are a
couple places in Calgary I will buy from, but I don't get there as often as
I used to. One I sell fish to periodically, he is extremely picky about what he
takes, and he typically likes what I offer so thats good- and I get decent
deals in return.
My biggest nightmare----happened only a week ago. I went to Spokane
to get some supplies, its a much shorter drive than anyplace else. I had
bought some expensive fancy goldfish for my partner, the only place that
I could find them was a big box chain store. Anyway, of the 6 fish I bought
5 died, less than 24 hrs after purchase. I took them back for replacements,
the 'manager' not only tried to wiggle out of the guarantee, when I told him
that I breed stingrays and have no trouble keeping them alive, he flat out
to my face called me a liar and tried to laugh me out of the store. I wasnt
going to leave without something , this was close to $100 worth of fish,
but he refused to sell me any! He made a note for the cashier to give me
my money back and told me not to bother coming back because he wont
let me kill any more fish..... With people like that running stores its no
wonder we have problems. I left the guy my business card, and what do
you know he emailed an apology that night. He's still trying to badmouth
me unfortuneately. I bought a number of way more expensive fish from
another place in Spokane, didn't lose even 1.....so no, don't think it had
anything to do with me. The guy came across as a total know it all, and
really couldn't accept that maybe I'm not just your average dumb fish
buyer.
 
Cirrus said:
Oh sure, I've had my issues with LFS in the past. Dishonesty does creep up once in a while, but then that can cut two ways! When I worked in an aquarium store as a teenager I remember the time I accidentally messed up at the till and gave a guy close to $100 cash PLUS his merchandise (which was close to another $100). So he basically got paid to take stuff! He stood there for a minute, gave me a weird look, and then hustled out of the store. Of course I figured out my mistake 10 seconds later and went running outside but he had taken off in a hurry for sure.

And then there are the customers who'll buy and return stuff for seemingly no reason, look for any loop hole they can to get something for free, etc. etc.

I know LFS are just trying to make a living, so I don't have any problem with that.

When they cross over to being downright dishonest, well that is not right.

Concerning the Asian arowana side of the hobby, I think hobbyists owe it to eachother to share the knowledge and try to help one another out. Hopefully we can do that without hurting the LFS's, since as kids most of us get our start in the aquarium hobby by going to an LFS :)
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Coz from my knowdelge based where I come from, my understanding that group orders are killing off the LFS especially for arowanas. Hence, sometimes, I do pity the importers as many of them rely on arowanas are exotics to make ends meet considering that the tropical fish industry is no longer sustainable for them due to lower demand for fishes like bettas and guppies. Hence, i think if this trend continues, i.e more hobbyist make group orders for arowanas, it will be a short time before your ornamental fish industry goes under.

Of course, some of them have a part to play also for being dishonest. However, do be aware that even if you order fishes direct from some farms in Indonesia, even the cities ones and they offer you too low a quote, don't take it as your good fortune, the good quality arowana stock has a fixed prices, too low a quote could mean that 1) the fishes are of low quality or have defects or, they are going to mix some lower quality fish, i.e RTG or banjar red into your order. You won't be able to tell as these fishes are shipped when they are 5-6 inches.
 
xbackgolden said:
Coz from my knowdelge based where I come from, my understanding that group orders are killing off the LFS especially for arowanas. Hence, sometimes, I do pity the importers as many of them rely on arowanas are exotics to make ends meet considering that the tropical fish industry is no longer sustainable for them due to lower demand for fishes like bettas and guppies. Hence, i think if this trend continues, i.e more hobbyist make group orders for arowanas, it will be a short time before your ornamental fish industry goes under.
Click to expand...

In Western Canada, a few Big Player LFS have dominated the Asian arowana market for about the past 10 years. I have been told by the owner of two of the largest stores in Western Canada that Asian arowana do not make up a very big part of their profit margin. Most of the smaller LFS who sell Asian arowana will hold one or maybe two. These stores also do not make a lot of money from Asian arowana.

In Eastern Canada it sounds like there are some "pure play" Asian arowana stores that truly specialize in selling mostly Asian arowana. I can see these stores having difficulty as the group buy method grows and grows.

What is happening in the Singapore market? Is the group buy method catching on there too? I have read on arofanatics.com that many LFS in Signapore are closing these days. Is it due to decline in the Asian arowana market (i.e. is the fad passing), were there just too many stores, or do you think that the internet/direct purchase/group buy is partly responsible?

When it comes to the retail of high end items like Asian arowana, the internet will continue to play a role, as will group buys. It is just evolution I think. In the end the retailers have to adapt and add value to their service somehow.

Like the motto of arowanaclub.ca, LFS need to promote Community, Knowledge, and Innovation.

xbackgolden said:
Of course, some of them have a part to play also for being dishonest. However, do be aware that even if you order fishes direct from some farms in Indonesia, even the cities ones and they offer you too low a quote, don't take it as your good fortune, the good quality arowana stock has a fixed prices, too low a quote could mean that 1) the fishes are of low quality or have defects or, they are going to mix some lower quality fish, i.e RTG or banjar red into your order. You won't be able to tell as these fishes are shipped when they are 5-6 inches.
Click to expand...

Yes yes yes! I agree with you 100%! In fact I refuse to buy on price alone. The fish we source from Panda Aquatics are actually MORE expensive wholesale than those from many other farms in Singapore and Indonesia.

In six weeks I am moving to live in Singapore. I will be going to Indonesia and Malaysia as well to check out the big farms in person. Trust is the key when it comes to buying Asian arowanas. In that regard, Mr.Kan of Panda Aquatics has been fantastic.

Hopefully you and I can meet when I arrive in Signapore! :)
 
EKen said:
XBackGolden:
Good post.

All the others:
Not to be a little prick, but I thought name dropping was not allowed.
Click to expand...

Thank you EKen for pointing that out. The posts in this thread have been modified to remove any names of stores (except for one store which is complimented by name).

MODS: We need to make sure the "no naming bad stores" rule is enforced!! :cool:
 
Its good to see theres so many hobbyist that share my frustration with LFS and some of their practices. Its true that they have to make ends meet, but they can do it not through taking advantage of people but by adding value to their stores like customer services and other business related ways. Maybe most LFS think operating a business is mainly about lowering costs and high profits will helpt them stay in business. I think what they lack is the fact they have the mentality of not caring for the returning customer.

Maybe these group buys are killing LFS but maybe these group buys wouldn't have happend if the LFS could effeicently source out aros. Ok I accept that LFS high prices is could be possibily a cause due to the high cost they get their aros and they have overhead costs. But if LFS extreme high prices right now is the market prices after all the overhead and market and risk implemented, they are not doing this efficently and it is not an efficent way for these asian aros to be marketed. Therefore the market, for example us, the group buy people is evening scores out and buying at a much lower price thus perhaps the real way asian aros suppose to be.

Group buys are more efficent in acquiring asian aros compared to LFS when comparing mainly MUCH lower costs and ensures more trust. Nothing proves the aro's authenticity then scanning the fish and matching the cert, and definately the aros coming from Panda Aquatics and kenta/theo group buy ways has been counting for the past 2 or more years.
 
I think the problem faced by LFS regarding Asian arowana and group buys has only one real solution - prices have to come down.

There are real advantages to buying a fish from a store, the main one being that you can see the fish you are buying. Is that advantage worth hundreds, or even thousands of dollars? For some people I think it is.

For most people, however, the opportunity to save hundreds or thousands of dollars probably outweighs the benefit of being able to choose a fish in person. This is especially true once the market trusts the quality of the fish being brought in.

In the end it looks like it is just the free market operating as it always does, with supply and demand (in this case) creating a new equilibrium.

I wonder how many people are able to obtain Asian arowana through group buys that they otherwise would not buy?
 
Cirrus said:
In Western Canada, a few Big Player LFS have dominated the Asian arowana market for about the past 10 years. I have been told by the owner of two of the largest stores in Western Canada that Asian arowana do not make up a very big part of their profit margin. Most of the smaller LFS who sell Asian arowana will hold one or maybe two. These stores also do not make a lot of money from Asian arowana.

In Eastern Canada it sounds like there are some "pure play" Asian arowana stores that truly specialize in selling mostly Asian arowana. I can see these stores having difficulty as the group buy method grows and grows.

What is happening in the Singapore market? Is the group buy method catching on there too? I have read on arofanatics.com that many LFS in Signapore are closing these days. Is it due to decline in the Asian arowana market (i.e. is the fad passing), were there just too many stores, or do you think that the internet/direct purchase/group buy is partly responsible?

When it comes to the retail of high end items like Asian arowana, the internet will continue to play a role, as will group buys. It is just evolution I think. In the end the retailers have to adapt and add value to their service somehow.

Like the motto of arowanaclub.ca, LFS need to promote Community, Knowledge, and Innovation.

Yes yes yes! I agree with you 100%! In fact I refuse to buy on price alone. The fish we source from Panda Aquatics are actually MORE expensive wholesale than those from many other farms in Singapore and Indonesia.

In six weeks I am moving to live in Singapore. I will be going to Indonesia and Malaysia as well to check out the big farms in person. Trust is the key when it comes to buying Asian arowanas. In that regard, Mr.Kan of Panda Aquatics has been fantastic.

Hopefully you and I can meet when I arrive in Signapore! :)
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Yup no a problem I will pm u my details. Yes alot of fish shops are closing down even the arowana pro shops. For a variety of reasons first, singapore is a small country and many of us live in flats myself included which is essentially a small apartment with 3 bedrooms. Hence, there is not enought space for us to house our fishes. Hence, there is a limit to how many arowana we can buy. Also, there is alot of reselling among hobbyist at a lower price resulting in less people going to the LFS. As for Panda's prices, i won't comment although i know they are most costly than other farms. In Singapore, a red will always be more costly as compared to those priced by Indonesians, as we have higher overheads and less space and less brooders resulting in lower yields.

Also, in Singapore we don't have to do group buys, there is a small group of people like me who buy in big quantity, Hence we go directly to the farms and cut off the LFS, not that there is anythign wrong with the LFS, In fact, i am good friend with 2 of the biggest pro shops in Singapore, but its just business as most of the LFS cannot supply me what i want anyway. This result in the LFS losing alot of business. And you know Singaporeans love to compare prices and bargain. So this also cuts down margins.
 
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As I breed Discus, I found majority of Large Stores, can't provide each variety with appropriate environment. High employee turnaround and procedures in place, do not meet more exotic fish acclimatization and maintenance requirements. On the other hand old "Mom&Pap" fish stores can't compete with Large store chain prices and selection, this causes major grief to hobbyists and owners alike.
Most of the time I try to support local small shops, as they provide good service and take care of their investment (fish). Problem is in today's "I want NOW" society, I am worried that those stores going to be history - when goal change from doing what you like and helping others to enjoy the hobby - to profit driven "assembly line": every one will suffer, hobbies - loose trust; stores - reputation and profits that they drive for are short lived...
As true hobbyists we know the patients it takes to grow our "babies" to a beautiful specimens, I sagest we apply the same careful and patient approach in our buying habits.
 
I also like smaller LFS when I buy fishes. I like the familiar service and human relations better in the small stores. But for equipment, I find that bigger stores have cheaper prices, which is natural I guess.

I think customers have to understand the fact that an LFS has to do some profits to live. Sure their prices are higher than group buys, but you have to understand that they are running a store, paying workers, electricity etc... They are also taking the chances of the fish dying, the fish getting sick or being not able to sell the fish.

It is a bit like you going to a restaurant and complaining why the food are so expensive when you can buy the ingredients and make the dish yourself at home.
 
I read all the posts and got ah dizzy LOL

I feel like most of you. I only trust a few stores and I buy fish close to cost from them as well as a few guy's I order from and they hook it up big time. I have not found one place I can trust when it comes to Asian Aro's. So I am waiting until I can get a high quality Aro for a good price and I know I am not getting taken for a ride.

I still have much to learn before I buy one.

Aside from this we all have to remember the guy's that own the stores need to make money and they dont care if we dont like the prices. They are obviously selling the fish because they keep bring in more.

Edit- One thing I can admit to is if the fish is awesome looking be it a dat or pleco I pay and I dont care about the price.
 
EKen said:
I also like smaller LFS when I buy fishes. I like the familiar service and human relations better in the small stores. But for equipment, I find that bigger stores have cheaper prices, which is natural I guess.

I think customers have to understand the fact that an LFS has to do some profits to live. Sure their prices are higher than group buys, but you have to understand that they are running a store, paying workers, electricity etc... They are also taking the chances of the fish dying, the fish getting sick or being not able to sell the fish.

It is a bit like you going to a restaurant and complaining why the food are so expensive when you can buy the ingredients and make the dish yourself at home.
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well said ;).
 
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