Singapore versus Indonesian Super Reds

[Cirrus]

I just had someone email me asking why Singapore Super Reds often cost more than Indonesian Super Reds. Below is the answer I came up with.

Singapore is a very expensive country, the Switzerland of Asia. Everything is more expensive there than Indonesia: land, labour, water; Singapore is a first rate developed country that tries to profit through a "value-added" approach to Asian arowana fish farming. When it comes to Asian arowana they focus on the higher end fish and often try to "brand" them with trade names; mostly these fish are line bred, meaning the farmers try to ensure that they know the genetic history of their fish as much as possible and control the genetic reproduction as much as possible. In general Singapore Super Reds share common characteristics, like deep bodies, big fan tails, and slighly spoony heads. Sometimes the base scale colour is a bit more "unusual" too, (ex. blue base or purple base seems more common there?). It can be debated if the Singapore farms have created separate "hybrids" that differ one farm from the other or if all Singapore fish are somewhat similar in characteristics. Given the popularity of proxy farming, where hobbyists/investors provide fish for breeding purposes to farms in return for a share of the fry or profits, it gets complicated. My guess is that the farms are moving in the direction of having fish distinguished by different characteristics (one farm from the other), but that they are not there yet. For reasons explained above, Singapore Super Red aros tend to cost more than Indonesian Super reds.

Indonesian Super Reds also tend to share some common characteristics: longer bodies, bullet heads, long pectorals, and fan tails. Green base aros are common, though blue and purple base can be got too. Some Indonesian farms have famous "branded" fish for sale, but most farms grade their fish as they grow up according to displayed physical characteristics: normal grade Super Red (6 -10 inches), premium grade (10+ inches), show grade (18+ inches). Indonesia produces the majority of the Super Red aros on the market. The fish origininated there and farming is long established. So many Super Reds are produced there that some Singapore farms and aro shops/traders actually import the Indonesian Super Reds and "rebrand" them under their own trade names for resale. Thus, it is possible to buy a Super Red from some farms or shops/traders in Singapore that is acually from Indonesia. Sometimes the resellers are very open about this and just call them "Indoreds"; sometimes the resellers do not advertise that the fish came from Indonesia. Given that Indonesia is a developing country, one could argue that their quality control standards on average are not as high as to be found in Singapore. Still, established farms live and succeed by growing their name and reputation, so if you are buying from an established farm your chances of getting a good fish seem high.

Which Super Red is better, a Singapore or an Indonesian? It comes down to personal taste, and to a certain extent what you are prepared to pay. At the high end of the scale, where true premium or show fish (12-18 inch fish showing colour) from Singapore and Indonesia are compared, it becomes a very personal decision and price is the same. At the smaller size scale, where the fish don't show colour yet, you tend to pay more for the Singapore fish.

Like all Asian arowana, genes play only part of the role in determining how the fish will turn out. The owners skill and dedication as a hobbyist is equally important.

It would be great to have members contribute their opinions and experience to this thread. Please note, the above should not be interpreted as "spin" in favour of one farm or country over the other; I have imported many (hundreds) of super reds from both Singapore and Indonesia and have good things to say about both.

 

[bcarlos]

Personally, I like the look of Indo reds over SG reds. I think they have more impressive finnage and I prefer the longer body shape. In a big tank, I think their shape gives more a majestic look than a stout-looking SG red.

That being said, some of the colour morphs that come out of SG are insane. While the marketing name's are annoying (my hobbyist and vendor voice talking), some of the morphs they've developed through selective line breeding are unbelievable.

I also think it's safe to say it's pretty obvious that SG has the better and more matured breeder lines when it comes to XB. In this regard, Indo has much catching up to do. But what do I care, I'm a red guy

 

[Cirrus]

To avoid having this thread getting political in terms of various farms, let's not mention any farm names, just stick to the regions. I think we can have more fun talking about the relative characteristics of the fish by country if we avoid mentioning or promoting any particular fish farms.

 

[kman]

To avoid having this thread getting political in terms of various farms, let's not mention any farm names, just stick to the regions. I think we can have more fun talking about the relative characteristics of the fish by country if we avoid mentioning or promoting any particular fish farms.

what's wrong with listing all known farms and their country of origin??

 

[h.l_nathan]

I'm going to Asia in a couple weeks. I might be getting a paired aro from indonesia and see if they will breed in my tank.
As a pref i like the look from indo more than Sing

 

[Cirrus]

what's wrong with listing all known farms and their country of origin??

It can end up dividing people into camps - people who own fish from a particular farm can either feel defensive at perceived insult or else feel the need to promote the farm their fish comes from because they feel others are doing the same thing for their fish from other farms. I would like to get past that here. I think everyone can agree that Singapore Super Reds in general and Indoreds in general are nice looking fish in their own way. It would be nice to have a thread/stickie to which new aro keepers could be sent that doesn't just become a case of dueling sales pitches somehow. Maybe that is impossible, but worth a try.

 

[kman]

It can end up dividing people into camps - people who own fish from a particular farm can either feel defensive at perceived insult or else feel the need to promote the farm their fish comes from because they feel others are doing the same thing for their fish from other farms. I would like to get past that here. I think everyone can agree that Singapore Super Reds in general and Indoreds in general are nice looking fish in their own way. It would be nice to have a thread/stickie to which new aro keepers could be sent that doesn't just become a case of dueling sales pitches somehow. Maybe that is impossible, but worth a try.

i'm just currious what farm from indo and sing without having to dig for info on google or other aro sites

just put sticky on that info pls....ppl can still start new posts elsewhere if they want to argue which farm is better

 

[Boydo]

I don’t think there is any war as per say between the two areas as far as Super Red quality is concerned. I have seen many spectacular Reds from Indo and equally as many from Singapore. All farms have high end aros and low end aros. To simplify; high end fish come with high price tag and low end fish come with a lower price tag. The moral of the story to hobbyist is buy what you can afford and enjoy it.

I have inquired to several Indo farms and yes they have cheap reds when you ask for their cheap reds. When you ask for higher end fish with better shape and color these cost much more. Much like cheap reds are available from Singapore just not as abundant. So I wouldn’t be so brave as to state there is a huge gap in the market between the two areas maybe just a difference in what the level of quality we see in Canada from the two areas.

Furthermore it is no secret that many arowana farms often trade, buy and sell fish between each other. However when it comes to branding them under their respective names, most farms are very selective about this and grade fish accordingly. In my experience these fish are graded young even at 6-8 inches so I feel that the grading system mentioned above is more opinion than industry fact.

So I guess I would have to say that this is almost a pointless debate as quality reds can be sourced from both regions. If price is the most important deciding factor - you get what you pay for regardless of where it comes from.

 

[Cirrus]

Yes, you get what you pay for when it comes to confirmed colour characteristiscs for larger size fish. Prices are the same in Indonesia and Singapore for these fish.

But when you look at smaller 6 inch fish, why are Super reds more expensive in Singapore at the wholesale level than the same fish are in Indonesia? I think it comes back to Singapore being a more expensive country with higher labour, land and input costs and so they have to charge more. They are also middlemen when it comes to small reds they import from Indonesia and so they have to add on cost.

If you can get a small 6 inch red for less money from Indo, why pay more for a small red from Singapore? This is where the debate keeps going since Singapore farms want to promote their brands and convince consumers that the price difference is worth it.

 

[FOSSILFISH]

Could it be that Indo is still building their reputation in Asia as a quality Arowana producer? Could they be increasing the numbers sold by undercutting Singapore in price to get a foot hold in the industry.
This is usually the way business is done in asia if your the "Little Dragon", survive with the scraps, grow big and then "Take Over". I think if your a Red Arowana person, i would go Indo farms. If Gold is your taste, a farm that have breeding stocks from Malaysia will be the best, be it in Singapore or Indo.

 

[FOSSILFISH]

I agree with Cirrus on this. Prices for Arowana’s in Canada have really gone down big time. Not sure if it's the effect of the down turn in economy, but it has really changed from 3 years ago.

It is most likely due to the LFS going with farms that can give them the best price for profit. It is the name of the game. They will sell these majestic fish only if they can turn out a profit in the end.
I guess you can compare it to "Blu Ray" DVD players. When they first came out they were really expensive, now a few years later. Now, you can buy a no-name brand for less than a hundred dollars.

This goes for our favoured arowana's as well. I have seen a few that were purchased from a few (un-named) farms and they lack in colour and quality. Be it Red, Super red, gold cross back etc.
We as consumers will create a price niche for the suppliers. The suppliers will give us the quality of products we are willing to pay for. But don't be a fool. You will never get a SR Arowana that can be sold for 3 times the price in other places in the world for $400.00 from any farm or supplier here.

I hope were all not too naive to think that the Farms are selling us their top end products for the lower price we are paying here. The farms know, be it in Singapore, Indo, or any other part of Asia they are coming from, as to what quality the Arowana will turn out just before or shortly after they loose their egg sacs.
They know if a red arowana will be a "thick frame", "thin frame", "white base", "purple base", etc.
They sort these out in quality from, "High to Low". Then they proceed to price them accordingly depending on the area it will be destined to and price range demand.
Just like Diamonds or pearls have different grading, quality and pricing.

Yes, we can now have an arowana swimming in out tanks today for less. But let’s look at the big picture. To some hobbyist, quality becomes secondary, or it doesn't really matter. To some it’s just to say, "I keep an "Asian Arowana".

It's just like saying; I have or drive a "BMW". He just doesn't mention that it's a 1978 rust bucket. (Not meant to insult those that keep and maintain a 1978 collector BMW).

Then there are those who will raise them from fry, then be un-happy after a few years of their aro's development, re-sell, start over with the search. Some even go to distant corners of the globe in search of that perfect arowana. They will buy it, no matter the cost, to hopefully try and end up with that "RED Arowana".

This leaves me with a question? What have we become? Are we, Hobbyist or Opportunist?
At the moment, we blindly throw thousands of dollars in search for something we really know very little about.
We only have the information from suppliers or LFS and believe them. We ask no other questions. We don't ask for a guarantee in the colour development. Nor do we have any proof of pedigree or quality of lineage. We just take it all at face value, and all the risk is on us.
All we know is, we bought an Asian Aro, with a certificate of authenticity that states that its is an arowana, and the supposed colour.
We don’t know if the arowana swimming in our tank is a cross bred red and gold, rtg and red etc. We just take what’s off the shelves.

Getting back to Singapore and Indo Arow’s. Most come from the back waters of Indo and Malaysia. So if a farm purchases F1’s from Indo and is raised in Singapore, its still an Indo fish. The only thing that changes is its Citizenship. It stays in the country long enough and it gets mixed in with the rest of the Singapore aro’s and it gets called that.

Here’s a question? What does a farm do when it can’t keep up with the demand or produces less than the orders it needs to fill. Do you think they cut down all the orders and tell buyers to wait three to six months for the next harvest to fill orders?
Or would they contact other Small Arowana Farms in the area and buy from them.
Sounds like it would never happen? Well think again. The small farms near the big aro farms bought all the of their older breeding stocks. So theoretically they are the same strain and maybe of the same quality.
The breeding stock’s these small farms purchase are of older broods from the big farm which are sold for less due to low productivity or age. This is done to make room to introduce new strains to stock their ponds.
Farms may deny this and we may never be told that it is practiced to save their name in the industry, but this practice is done for every consumable live stock sold on the market. Yes from chicken, cows, swine, chinchilla’s and yes, even arowana’s.

So I guess you can say, "You get what you pay for", in the end.