xbackgolden
New Member
Trade secret my friend
. Sharing the secret will break their rice blow as they like to call it in chinese.
Are my expectation too high?
- Thread starter protoxeno
- Start date
Trade secret my friend
. Sharing the secret will break their rice blow as they like to call it in chinese.xbackgolden
New Member
Ah, now this gets to be very very interesting. I have been making the same arguments as you for some time. Recently, however, some people in Canada have begun selling Indoreds that we are talking about. People are importing cheap Indoreds to Canada, that cost less than Panda Reds, and then ask more than the going rate for Panda Reds! That shows you how messed up the market is in Canada I think...Unless of course you can trust those low-ball prices offered by farms in Indonesia! What is a person to do!!
It is a very difficult situation to figure out, both for importers/brokers, retailers, and customers. I hope FOSSILFISH can jump in here and provide his opinion on this situation as he recently bought two such Indored fish I believe?
By the way, I am not seeking to stir up trouble here. I am genuinely after knowledge. As someone heading to south east Asia with plans to buy A LOT of Asian arowana, I just need knowledge to go on. I hope we can continue to have a mature discussion without anyone taking offence.
And thank you for an honest response Xbackgolden.
Well, it really depends on what your competitive advantage is. If your are playing this game on price alone then maybe you might have to change supplier. Some people only play the game by quality and are only willing to sell their products when someone is able to match their prices there is this farm called Munjulputra who sells their fish at 5000 USD per piece withouth bulk discount and they are still selling well why? because they claim to be best in the world for red arowana. Also, my recommendation is in this biz, in order to be taken seriously, It is important for one to have a brick and mortar biz, like a shop or an import centre without one, it will be hard for you to negotiate with the farm as they will take you as some fly by night operation.
In the case of a screwed up market, I think its part due to your governing authorties part, in Singapore, its not easy to import or export arowana, even some farms don't have the license. you require ava cleareance, then cities clearance which can be abit tourblesome. However, i am surprised that individuals have their own capacity in Europe and Canada to import their own fish. In Singapore, a hobbyist will never be allowed to import his own fish.
Last edited:
protoxeno
New Member
Trade secret my friend
I know what you mean, lol "rice blow" I take you mean rice bowl
Last edited:
noaro
New Member
I know what you mean, lol "rice blow" I take you mean rice bow
i take you mean "rice bowl"?
xbackgolden
New Member
I know what you mean, lol "rice blow" I take you mean rice bowl
yup, typo..... thanks for making the correction.
FOSSILFISH
New Member
Are my expectations too high?
Hi Cirrus and fellow Hobbyist,
Yes, I did purchase 2 Indo red' but, at the time of purchase I was convinced the red's from Arowana Canada were better quality fish than what I have seen on the market in the GTA at that time.
Both Arow's came from Elkindo, distributed by Arowana Canada, who was not a LFS nor was it a group buy.
I guess you can say that it is a new form of Arowana sale, where the set up is at their home and you get invited to see the Arowanas live in their holding tanks. It's not a store, and they have paid for these Arow's from their own pockets. They have given Arowana hobbyist another alternative how they buy Arowana's.
I can't really comment if Indo fish are cheap, but I can say that I am happy with my purchase of the Elkindo's. I will not name LFS names, but I was out visiting some LFS over the weekend and I know that for the price that I paid for the Elkindo's I think they both have good to excellent potential in colour development.
I spoke recently to a few other's who purchased Elkido reds like me, and they too are happy with their fish's development. Elkindo for most who don't know only carry red strain fish, so for those looking for Golds or XB, youÂ’re out of luck.
VIP, is another story, I don't want to get started on that, and I do have one of those too.
What we should be doing is educating ourselves not only in the keeping of Arowana's but in how to pick an Arowana. Most people buying a car will research a vehicle before making a commitment and purchase. Do the same with Arowana's. There is a ton of literature out there that are written by Arow keepers from SE Asia and they know what they are talking about. Surf the net, read, and educate your self.
We all know missrepresentation exists in the market place, and here's a famous quote by P.T. Barnum, "THERE IS A SUCKER BORN EVERY DAY". It just depends if you are that, "A SUCKER".
I am sure that there are hundreds or thousands of Arow farms in Indonesia. Most of them are unregistered back yard farms. The Judicial system in SE Asia tend to lack the further you are from the city, I don't care how thorough the systems is rules and regulations are breached every day. Arow's traded illegally will still find their way into the market and into our aquariums some how. The numbers may not be large but I bet if you visited Arow hobbyists in Indo, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Manila, & China, that you would find illegally accessed Arow's being kept by some hobbyist.
Most countries in SE Asia profit from the sale of counterfeit products from Purses to car parts. Arowana's are not immune. We all would be pretty naive to think that Arowana's are not being traded in the same manner. Do the governing bodies do an audit? And are they able to control the unregistered farms?
We in North America are a bit more diligent in checking to see where our Aro's are from, but in SE Asia, there are hundreds maybe thousands in the hobby that don't care. The sales of fish that have no certifications exist all over the area.
It's all Economics. A farmer who tends a field of rice will net a him a few hundred dollars for his crops per season. But if he keeps a small Arowana pond and raises wild caught non registered Arow's, can earn him 2 to 3 times the income.
What would you do in that same situation? Most farmers caught will not spend jail terms, the fish is confiscated and a fine is issued. When they do get caught they are usually minding the farm for some one else and the big guy never goes down.
If a certain farm is slated to be shut down, they would have cleaned up before they get there. Locals are bribed and paid for this information and Corruption and thrive in third world countries. As long as there is money to be made in Arowana's it will not be different from knock off purses and running shoes.
Everyone knows that if you want something cheap; you buy it in SE Asia. Not to bad mouth SE Asia, but we in North America are one of the largest consumers of "FAKES" in the market. SE Asia is capable of the supply and N. America has the demand.
I think in the future Indo Arowana's will be of the norm in the trade, and we will see more and more of them. But, it is up to the hobbist to learn how to spot the best ones coming in. That perfect Arow may be just priced well to impress the consumer and to make a name for them selves.
In the Orient, when new business opens store owners will slash profits to compete. Or post lost leaders. Price slashing create noise in the market place to get consumers attention.
Let's not miss construed price slashing with poor quality fish. Indonesia is making allot if noise at the moment and we here in N. America is noticing. Maybe its time to embrace the future.
Remember, most of the Arow's in our tanks can be traced down to a river in Indonesia, & Malaysia. If Arow's came from Indonesia why do we think Indonesia canÂ’t produce top quality Aro's? Or is that what we here in N. America are lead to believe?
Prices for all LFS or sellers of Arowana's in N. America is negotiable. I'm sure you can find a seller that will sell close to your buying price. It's a card game out there and you have to read the "BLUFF'S". Prices here are dictated or were initially started by most LFS and the rest just follow suit.
Market price for a product is dictated by the consumer. That product will sell at that asking price unless you negotiate. We here are not accustomed to negotiating prices for anything. Big ticket items like cars seldom sell for their ticket price.
Offer to buy 2 or more with a friend when buying an Aro and I am sure the LFS will reduce their prices to make 2 sales rather than none. Don't be afraid to walk away, but keep the door open for next time.
You have a choice.
Ah, now this gets to be very very interesting. I have been making the same arguments as you for some time. Recently, however, some people in Canada have begun selling Indoreds that we are talking about. People are importing cheap Indoreds to Canada, that cost less than Panda Reds, and then ask more than the going rate for Panda Reds! That shows you how messed up the market is in Canada I think...Unless of course you can trust those low-ball prices offered by farms in Indonesia! What is a person to do!!
It is a very difficult situation to figure out, both for importers/brokers, retailers, and customers. I hope FOSSILFISH can jump in here and provide his opinion on this situation as he recently bought two such Indored fish I believe?
By the way, I am not seeking to stir up trouble here. I am genuinely after knowledge. As someone heading to south east Asia with plans to buy A LOT of Asian arowana, I just need knowledge to go on. I hope we can continue to have a mature discussion without anyone taking offence.
And thank you for an honest response Xbackgolden.
Hi Cirrus and fellow Hobbyist,
Yes, I did purchase 2 Indo red' but, at the time of purchase I was convinced the red's from Arowana Canada were better quality fish than what I have seen on the market in the GTA at that time.
Both Arow's came from Elkindo, distributed by Arowana Canada, who was not a LFS nor was it a group buy.
I guess you can say that it is a new form of Arowana sale, where the set up is at their home and you get invited to see the Arowanas live in their holding tanks. It's not a store, and they have paid for these Arow's from their own pockets. They have given Arowana hobbyist another alternative how they buy Arowana's.
I can't really comment if Indo fish are cheap, but I can say that I am happy with my purchase of the Elkindo's. I will not name LFS names, but I was out visiting some LFS over the weekend and I know that for the price that I paid for the Elkindo's I think they both have good to excellent potential in colour development.
I spoke recently to a few other's who purchased Elkido reds like me, and they too are happy with their fish's development. Elkindo for most who don't know only carry red strain fish, so for those looking for Golds or XB, youÂ’re out of luck.
VIP, is another story, I don't want to get started on that, and I do have one of those too.
What we should be doing is educating ourselves not only in the keeping of Arowana's but in how to pick an Arowana. Most people buying a car will research a vehicle before making a commitment and purchase. Do the same with Arowana's. There is a ton of literature out there that are written by Arow keepers from SE Asia and they know what they are talking about. Surf the net, read, and educate your self.
We all know missrepresentation exists in the market place, and here's a famous quote by P.T. Barnum, "THERE IS A SUCKER BORN EVERY DAY". It just depends if you are that, "A SUCKER".
I am sure that there are hundreds or thousands of Arow farms in Indonesia. Most of them are unregistered back yard farms. The Judicial system in SE Asia tend to lack the further you are from the city, I don't care how thorough the systems is rules and regulations are breached every day. Arow's traded illegally will still find their way into the market and into our aquariums some how. The numbers may not be large but I bet if you visited Arow hobbyists in Indo, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Manila, & China, that you would find illegally accessed Arow's being kept by some hobbyist.
Most countries in SE Asia profit from the sale of counterfeit products from Purses to car parts. Arowana's are not immune. We all would be pretty naive to think that Arowana's are not being traded in the same manner. Do the governing bodies do an audit? And are they able to control the unregistered farms?
We in North America are a bit more diligent in checking to see where our Aro's are from, but in SE Asia, there are hundreds maybe thousands in the hobby that don't care. The sales of fish that have no certifications exist all over the area.
It's all Economics. A farmer who tends a field of rice will net a him a few hundred dollars for his crops per season. But if he keeps a small Arowana pond and raises wild caught non registered Arow's, can earn him 2 to 3 times the income.
What would you do in that same situation? Most farmers caught will not spend jail terms, the fish is confiscated and a fine is issued. When they do get caught they are usually minding the farm for some one else and the big guy never goes down.
If a certain farm is slated to be shut down, they would have cleaned up before they get there. Locals are bribed and paid for this information and Corruption and thrive in third world countries. As long as there is money to be made in Arowana's it will not be different from knock off purses and running shoes.
Everyone knows that if you want something cheap; you buy it in SE Asia. Not to bad mouth SE Asia, but we in North America are one of the largest consumers of "FAKES" in the market. SE Asia is capable of the supply and N. America has the demand.
I think in the future Indo Arowana's will be of the norm in the trade, and we will see more and more of them. But, it is up to the hobbist to learn how to spot the best ones coming in. That perfect Arow may be just priced well to impress the consumer and to make a name for them selves.
In the Orient, when new business opens store owners will slash profits to compete. Or post lost leaders. Price slashing create noise in the market place to get consumers attention.
Let's not miss construed price slashing with poor quality fish. Indonesia is making allot if noise at the moment and we here in N. America is noticing. Maybe its time to embrace the future.
Remember, most of the Arow's in our tanks can be traced down to a river in Indonesia, & Malaysia. If Arow's came from Indonesia why do we think Indonesia canÂ’t produce top quality Aro's? Or is that what we here in N. America are lead to believe?
Prices for all LFS or sellers of Arowana's in N. America is negotiable. I'm sure you can find a seller that will sell close to your buying price. It's a card game out there and you have to read the "BLUFF'S". Prices here are dictated or were initially started by most LFS and the rest just follow suit.
Market price for a product is dictated by the consumer. That product will sell at that asking price unless you negotiate. We here are not accustomed to negotiating prices for anything. Big ticket items like cars seldom sell for their ticket price.
Offer to buy 2 or more with a friend when buying an Aro and I am sure the LFS will reduce their prices to make 2 sales rather than none. Don't be afraid to walk away, but keep the door open for next time.
You have a choice.
Cirrus
Arowana blogger
Thank you for a thoughtful and informative reply Fossilfish.
As for people selling arows out of their homes, this has been a trend in Western Canada for a long time. There are at least two people I know of in BC who do this. The possibility of robbery would keep me from wanting to use my home as a place of business. Once word gets out that you are in the business, and people know where you live, suddenly it gets hard to go on vacation with any piece of mind!
Here is the dilemna buyers face of Indonesian reds. Either buy small before colouration is confirmed and thus get a lower price, or buy larger with colouration already developed, and pay more. Of course once colouration is confirmed then the fish are priced much higher since you are now competing with the Japanese and Chinese export markets! lol
In the case of Elkindo or Shelookred, prices range from $550 to $650 per fish if you buy at 5-6 inches. At this size fish are indistinguishable from Banjars. If you want a larger fish, you are looking at a higher price. Seems we are back to the analogy of trying to buy a BMW at Korean car prices.
I'd love to get a group order of smaller fish happening, but unless I can be sure that no banjars will get thrown in, I remain warry. Thus it all comes down to trust. Although you may be able to tell a Banjar from a SR before confirmed colouration, I can not do it with a high level of accuracy. Thus, I need to trust the people I am buying from! So far the only people I can really trust in this whole crazy buiness are Kenta and Mr.Kan!
As far as corruption goes in Indonesia, I have been robbed before in Jakarta and had to deal with the "police" afterwards. Maybe my nerves in doing business there are a case of "once burned, twice shy".
We'll see what I can find out when I make it down to Indonesia next year.
As for people selling arows out of their homes, this has been a trend in Western Canada for a long time. There are at least two people I know of in BC who do this. The possibility of robbery would keep me from wanting to use my home as a place of business. Once word gets out that you are in the business, and people know where you live, suddenly it gets hard to go on vacation with any piece of mind!
Here is the dilemna buyers face of Indonesian reds. Either buy small before colouration is confirmed and thus get a lower price, or buy larger with colouration already developed, and pay more. Of course once colouration is confirmed then the fish are priced much higher since you are now competing with the Japanese and Chinese export markets! lol
In the case of Elkindo or Shelookred, prices range from $550 to $650 per fish if you buy at 5-6 inches. At this size fish are indistinguishable from Banjars. If you want a larger fish, you are looking at a higher price. Seems we are back to the analogy of trying to buy a BMW at Korean car prices.
I'd love to get a group order of smaller fish happening, but unless I can be sure that no banjars will get thrown in, I remain warry. Thus it all comes down to trust. Although you may be able to tell a Banjar from a SR before confirmed colouration, I can not do it with a high level of accuracy. Thus, I need to trust the people I am buying from! So far the only people I can really trust in this whole crazy buiness are Kenta and Mr.Kan!
As far as corruption goes in Indonesia, I have been robbed before in Jakarta and had to deal with the "police" afterwards. Maybe my nerves in doing business there are a case of "once burned, twice shy".
We'll see what I can find out when I make it down to Indonesia next year.
FOSSILFISH
New Member
Are my expectations too high?
You should never say your Post are stupid.
I always say; "The more you know, the more you know, you need to know."
Learning from others is the advantage of these forums. We all have different experiences with Arow's yet all are similar.
Hope that makes sense.
You should never say your Post are stupid.
I always say; "The more you know, the more you know, you need to know."
Learning from others is the advantage of these forums. We all have different experiences with Arow's yet all are similar.
Hope that makes sense.
xbackgolden
New Member
Or you know the other saying which especially applies to me, the more you know the more you know you don't know.
xbackgolden
New Member
Thank you for a thoughtful and informative reply Fossilfish.
As for people selling arows out of their homes, this has been a trend in Western Canada for a long time. There are at least two people I know of in BC who do this. The possibility of robbery would keep me from wanting to use my home as a place of business. Once word gets out that you are in the business, and people know where you live, suddenly it gets hard to go on vacation with any piece of mind!
Here is the dilemna buyers face of Indonesian reds. Either buy small before colouration is confirmed and thus get a lower price, or buy larger with colouration already developed, and pay more. Of course once colouration is confirmed then the fish are priced much higher since you are now competing with the Japanese and Chinese export markets! lol
In the case of Elkindo or Shelookred, prices range from $550 to $650 per fish if you buy at 5-6 inches. At this size fish are indistinguishable from Banjars. If you want a larger fish, you are looking at a higher price. Seems we are back to the analogy of trying to buy a BMW at Korean car prices.
I'd love to get a group order of smaller fish happening, but unless I can be sure that no banjars will get thrown in, I remain warry. Thus it all comes down to trust. Although you may be able to tell a Banjar from a SR before confirmed colouration, I can not do it with a high level of accuracy. Thus, I need to trust the people I am buying from! So far the only people I can really trust in this whole crazy buiness are Kenta and Mr.Kan!
As far as corruption goes in Indonesia, I have been robbed before in Jakarta and had to deal with the "police" afterwards. Maybe my nerves in doing business there are a case of "once burned, twice shy".
We'll see what I can find out when I make it down to Indonesia next year.
Yes. thats the problem. Its hard to trust the farms these days, because, in south east asia, most of the farmers are old school uneducated business people, hence sometimes, there is this lack of trust and quality control. Also, on some occassions, because the small fishes look so similar, the farm workers could accidentally tag the wrong fish and ship it out. So this is the risk involved.