Looking for GH arowana

[Boydo]

by no ways am i blaming you at all for this. if i wanted something done with this issue, i would have brought it up a long time ago! not after i sold the fish and over 1 yr later! im just talking about the gold head aros in the market from ALL FARMS and how and why does the gold head decline from selection to our home tanks? that was my main purpose of this discussion. since this fish was brought up, i think its ok to talk about GHs since i did own that fish at one point and i can share my experience/views.

the only thing i want to come out from all this is that will farms take responsibility? theo was called out on the forums and asked why the farm he represents sent bb xbacks looking like rtgs? you can say both cases are slightly the same. just wanted to see what can be done regarding this situation?

like anything we buy, we are guaranteed some sort of warranty for defects/flaws for 1 yr. i know fish are not electronics and there are many variables invovled but shouldnt there be some sort of standard?

im merely trying to start a thread where we can further understand ghs and the way to upkeep them and how they develop over time.

the picture below is when i first received the fish from you. with your care, shop lights, white tank, why is that the top portion of this aro look different than the advertised picture from the farm?

the point im trying to make is that ALL farms over expose their GHs. if they stay the same as the pics they took at the farm, that would be great but that is not the case. its the same thing for every other farm out there that sell GHs. why is it that only the farm can groom GHs but once out of their care, it is difficult for us hobbiest to do so?

Here are some pictures I took of that fish for you just a matter of days before it was sent to you.

The farms picture(second from left):

It seems my pictures compare very well to the Pang Long picture. The main difference is my pictures are taken with the fish in a tank not taken under the afternoon Singapore sun. The picture you posted was also to my knowledge taken near three weeks after you had the fish which is plenty of time considering HO lighting can burn these fish in days. Here in this thread I am on record once again concerned about your lighting. Note post #30 and 32:

http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=2538&page=4

And this is just the tip of the ice burg I have many emails to validate this further. However I won’t so rash as to make this any more public than need. As I suppose it poor business ethics to negitively call out another business in the public eye.

Aros that are groomed in WTT are not tanned. This seems to be a common misconception among hobbyists, and apparently some farms that do not breed GH Xbacks and are only relying on rumors, hearsay, or perhaps have their own agenda for keeping these types of rumors alive.

Grooming a young xback out in WTT is not exactly a "trade secret", nor is the correct care in keeping them in the home aquarium. The fish are groomed out on the farm I deal exclusively with in white fiberglass or simular tanks. The lighting that is used is common white shop lights. This is not based on hearsay, or chatter on the internet, but is based on what I have seen in person (at Pang Long) with my own two eyes.

No tanning is involved, actually the exact opposite - which is precisely why I always recommend to all of my customers to NEVER use high output lighting over their xbacks. Not just GH xbacks, but ALL xbacks. This is common knowledge among more advanced aro keepers, and is the constant mantra on sites such as arofanatics. If you ask about "tanning" a xback on arofanatics 100% of the members there will tell you that you should never use high output lighting, including compact fluorescent lights, or any type of intense lighting when grooming out a xback. Not even for 6 hours a day. This can easily ruin a xbacks chance of ever crossing, just as it can cause a GH to loose color on the head, and/or keep it from ever reaching its true potential. Which is why I spoke out last year against a past member when they were stating that one could turn a regular gold xback, into a GH, by simply using "special lighting" to tan the fish. Obviously that is not the case. The only type of "special lighting" required is a cool white shop light. I don't know how much more clearer I can be with regards to this, yet many fail to understand this principle, or take my advice. I can't control that, nor can the farm that supplies the fish, anymore than we can control diet, water quality,etc.

A bright/white environment such as WTT will simply trigger a morphological change within the chromatophore cells of a fish. This is a fundamental fish grooming technique that has been used among breeders of many species of fish, for decades. The environmental response involving the color and even patterns in fish to their surroundings is well documented. The following link explains this in more detail. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/aqscisubwebindex/coloration.htm

This is exactly why if you put a quality super red in a white tank, that over time its colour will fade or become washed out. This same principle applies to many species of fish that require certain environmental conditions in order to look their best in an aquarium setting. Discus owners learned a long time ago that if you place a Blue Diamond discus into a tank with dark substrate, and/or a dark background, the fish will typically lose its shine, and become dark and muddy looking in appearance. With discus this change can take place overnight! If a hobbyist insists on keeping that strain of discus in a dark environment, do we then blame the vendor when the discus turn dark in color, even when the vendor recommended against this, and repeatedly supplied the correct way to keep the fish? That type of reasoning defies logic, yet this is exactly what some here are suggesting.

 

[Boydo]

Concerning my Blood Red, I painted the back of my tank a lighter blue colour, no black for me. The two side panels of my tank have no covering at all. Prior to that the fish was cared for by Jeremy (DeepRed) who kept the fish with no backgrounds at all for almost two months and its colour was and remained fantastic. When it comes to Maju Super reds (both chilli and bloods) I have never had a complaint about their colour. I would guess if you put a quality Super Red in a white tank, its colour would fade, but if you put it back in a darker tank, its colour would come back. I don't think it works that way with GH so best not to compare SR and GH's.

I have no stake in this debate about GH. I support Bret and his import of Pang Long aros, I support Mike's imports of exotic fish. I do not have any plans to import GH. I would prefer not to be involved in this debate as a reference point Mike and Bret.

However, I have collected a lot of information over the years from various farms concerning all sorts of things aro related. A year or two ago when I considered bringing in some GH I made some enquiries. I was told that GH required very special care or else their colour can be unstable; I was told that the special care was a "trade secret", that such care was only shared by farms with their best customers. I am sure Bret is considered a "best" customer and so I am sure he knows what he is talking about.

I am on record from way back about not liking WTT, it is just not my thing.

My apologies Theo. I didn't intend to involve you in forum drama. I was just trying to make a reference to enlighten the post.

 

[Boydo]

I dont know if you have to keep a gh in certain enviroment for it to remain a gh. But i have a friend who bought a 70% golden head and as it got older and bigger it started to lose lots of the golden head features. It was kept in a 180g tank with white background all around and got about 6hrs of light a day. The light he used were 96w 6700k cf. The head started to slowly get darker in some areas where once it was golden. so i dont know.

This is another piece of valid evidence that High Output light is very bad for Gold XB's and especially Gold Heads. 96w Power Compact lights are are very strong lights designed for salt water tanks to deliver high intensity light including more visible and non-visible far spectrum light including UVA and UVB. UVA and UVB are the spectrums that cause human skin to burn in the sun. This type of lighting is used for coral and reef growth and for planted tanks in the fresh water world. They are very popular because they are cheaper and run cooler than HQI Metal Halide and other high pressure HID Lights. Even at 6 hours a day the damage is obviously visible.

 

[Boydo]

so in the wild reds should stay in the sun all day and golds in the shaddy area

i think drop eye is a farm related thing which affects more of the indo farms and reds

i have at over 20 aro all from sig but only 2 reds out of the 20 and not one fish has ever got drop eye

for me its one of my pet hates even as i have had my aro over 4 years if it got drop eye it would be out the door

Why do you think there are no Wild Golden Heads!

I have cared for hundreds of aros and for me the only time I have seen drop eye it has been a result of head trama.

 

[Cirrus]

The quotes I have on GH come from one of the world's largest aro farms (not Panda ):

GH comes in many bloodlines. There are GH from blue base and gold base. There are GH from redgold, green, RTG and Hb. Yes, evern RTG and HB can have good development of GH. If you search our agent website, I am sure
you can find some sample pic.

You will have to educate the retailer that we do not guarantee the GH will
not fade or remain the same. They are man-made and if the retailer or
hobbyist do not know how to care for GH development, the GH may or may not fade. This is the truth that they will have to accept. If not, selling GH
can incur many troubles. But we guarantee the bloodline.

When I asked follow up questions, I was told:

GH Fade because of the environment. I regret that the skill of developing GH is still a guarded business secret which we only impart to our long term agents.

However, to maintain GH, the advice is to keep them in a bright environment.

The above fits with what Boydo says I think, though I would question what "bright environment" means (i.e. "bright environment" - does that mean WTT or bright lights?).

I think unscrupulous farms and traders have the abilty with WTT and lights to create "false" GH that will only retain their GH as long as one keeps the fish in the WTT; I think these fish should be distinguished from "true" GH like the ones Boydo imports, that seem to look good in both light and dark tanks; for these fish, it seems it is the brighter lights that can burn off the shine from the fish' head.

Somehow consensus opinion on these fish - how they are made, how to keep their colours stable - needs to be arrived at in order for the market to grow. The only way to address that is to have a useful thread/sticky in which people share information. Especially useful would be comments from people who own GH fish.

If anyone wants to help edit this thread to remove any perceived slights or offense, that is appreciated; just send a pm to Chen as he is best placed to moderate I think.

 

[exoticaquaria]

no need to be rash but do explain this. if i am for some reason mistaken about the above pic i posted (if it was really 3 weeks after the arrival date), explain to me the below pics? these were taken right when i received the fish from you/after i opened the shipping box.

does this fish look like the one you have taken pics of? is the shine and gold head the same? how does shine and gold head drastically decrease after a 1 hour flight to BC? i didnt mind what the aro looked like when i got him home. never did i complain. i thanked you and wanted to keep the fish since ive invested enough money. not until the drop eye happened that that i decided to sell the fish. but after seeing how the aro progressed after 1.5 years, or the lack of for a top grade xback, i think its fair to discuss the outcome.

im done with the forum drama as well. we both dont need to prove anything much further. if youd like to continue, we can do this via pm but is not necessary.

i am not a fan of forum debates that go negative. its not fair to the others on this board! i dont want this site to become like MFK lol.

 

[King-eL]

There are GH from redgold, green, RTG and Hb. Yes, evern RTG and HB can have good development of GH.

Yes I do aggree. I actually got a banjar red from Maju on June's order with some golden speckles on the forehead. One of a kind banjar red.

 

[kookus]

Wow. Thanks for all the info. This forum is awesome when it comes to info. It's always good to ask questions. Cheers

 

[T1KARMANN]

Why do you think there are no Wild Golden Heads!

I have cared for hundreds of aros and for me the only time I have seen drop eye it has been a result of head trama.

if that was the case it would mean reds jump and bang the head more than gold

if you look how many reds get drop eye compared to rtg the reds with drop eye is much higher

it would also mean the 99.9%of silvers jump and bang the head

i have just given up looking for the perfect aro with buying and selling every 5 mins its a waste of time and money

its best to just buy one aro red or gold and stick with it

you could buy and keep one aro for 20 years but most people buy and sell after 2 years because they think something better has come along but you will be in the same position in another 2 years

no point in selling a aro as often as you sell your car you lose money on cars and aros

if you are upgrading from banjar 1.5 red to super red or rtg to xback then yes do it but make sure you buy the right aro at the start once you upgrade it will save you a shed load of money and time

 

[chen88]

I agree....I will have my 10 aros for about 2 years and love them...no intent to sell any of them....and agree on the reds...more DE then other aros.

if that was the case it would mean reds jump and bang the head more than gold

if you look how many reds get drop eye compared to rtg the reds with drop eye is much higher

it would also mean the 99.9%of silvers jump and bang the head

i have just given up looking for the perfect aro with buying and selling every 5 mins its a waste of time and money

its best to just buy one aro red or gold and stick with it

you could buy and keep one aro for 20 years but most people buy and sell after 2 years because they think something better has come along but you will be in the same position in another 2 years

no point in selling a aro as often as you sell your car you lose money on cars and aros

if you are upgrading from banjar 1.5 red to super red or rtg to xback then yes do it but make sure you buy the right aro at the start once you upgrade it will save you a shed load of money and time

 

[Boydo]

I know if you didn’t like the fish when you got it you would have let me know and I would have done what it took to make you happy. Just like I paid for the shipping to replace the previous fish that unfortunately had a tiny white speck in one eye that went un-noticed. It is interesting how now it’s a problem. Is it because you are preparing to import arowanas yourself?
If you don’t like drama then don’t go looking for it.

 

[chen88]

I know if you didn’t like the fish when you got it you would have let me know and I would have done what it took to make you happy. Just like I paid for the shipping to replace the previous fish that unfortunately had a tiny white speck in one eye that went un-noticed. It is interesting how now it’s a problem. Is it because you are preparing to import arowanas yourself?
If you don’t like drama then don’t go looking for it.

Ok folks, let's stop this now....no need with the drama as it's been going so well of late!

If i can put in my two cents of both Mike and Brett....I've purchased from both of you and had typical issues of which BOTH of you responded with the quickest and most positive replacement/refunds!.

This is a hobby mixed in with some business. Most of all these are fishes that we buy and sell at a very young age, NO one even GOD can tell you what and how they will turn out...good indications would be their parents or genes, but it's not guaranteed and for those who expects that ie...100% no DE, 100% crossing, etc....should be buying a statue, regardless of the price!. Even a statue might not all be the same!.

so let's learn to live and learn and not start accusing each other of any suspicious intentions.

 

[Boydo]

Ok folks, let's stop this now....no need with the drama as it's been going so well of late!

If i can put in my two cents of both Mike and Brett....I've purchased from both of you and had typical issues of which BOTH of you responded with the quickest and most positive replacement/refunds!.

This is a hobby mixed in with some business. Most of all these are fishes that we buy and sell at a very young age, NO one even GOD can tell you what and how they will turn out...good indications would be their parents or genes, but it's not guaranteed and for those who expects that ie...100% no DE, 100% crossing, etc....should be buying a statue, regardless of the price!. Even a statue might not all be the same!.

so let's learn to live and learn and not start accusing each other of any suspicious intentions.

You're totally right Chen! My apologies!

 

[chen88]

You're totally right Chen! My apologies!

not asking for anyone's apologies...just move on.....

trust me there's more I would say to all of this but it too seems to get me into trouble so I keep quiet and more on...we all live longer when we do that!

 

[exoticaquaria]

replacing the defective fish was a good thing you did. unfortunately, you had no more absolute golds in stock at that time so i had to pay the extra to get a replacement so i went with the GH. i didnt want to wait for the next shipment since i was too excited to get an aro home lol.

after paying the extra, one would expect the GH to turn out a lot better than the AG since its classed as a higher value fish and cost more money. those GHs were the first ones in the canadian market. not too much info out there at that time so i had no idea what to expect. but going with the reputation of the farm and the amount paid, i would expect both to complement each other.

i just think its a touchy subject with GH "quality" from all farms. if the farms keep the info on how to groom them a trade secret, then what are we to expect when paying the $$$ on one? we cannot ask for the best/perfect aro but we should be guaranteed that we pay for what we get.

that being said, i dont plan to do any aro importing anytime soon. so dont worry bret


anyways, let the debate go on with GHs so we can further learn about them.

ive been contacted by Arovillage (former aro importer in BC who is living in s'pore now) to carry his premium xbacks from Raffles. with WTT being the norm these days, its hard to import them based on their current appearance at a mere 6-7 inch fish. who knows what they will look like in time?

here is a video of his fish currently available for export. how do these look? is it possible to say they can hold their GH / shine level after leaving the farm?

http://www.youtube.com/user/XinXiangLongArowana

 

[Boydo]

Jay seems to have some nice fish from the correspondence I had with him aswell.

To get this thread on topic again...Here is some non baised info:

Some of you may have heard of Richard Goh. He is a Singapore hobbyist who was the first to my knowledge breed arowanas in a residence in Singapore. He has well over 80 fish in his collection and is very knowledgeable and in this case non biased.

Here is a thread from Arofanatics where his is questioned about some of his golden heads and care for them. IMO the term "groom" the fish would have been a more accurate description of what he actually does. Tanning implies darkening of pigment, such as what's done when one "tans" a red aro.
A normal white shop light isn't going to "tan" anything. This could simply boil
down to a language/translation.

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445032

 

[Cirrus]

Grooming of GH must involve some combination of WTT and use of lights imo.

Some well known farm rep is on record at MFK of recommending 24 hour, 7 days a week lighting for aros, for the purpose of improving colour. However, there is no word on the specific lights he recommends using.

To my knowledge, Panda was amongst the first aro farms to start selling any type of "head" aros; for those with a longer memory on this forum, remember the "Platinum Head" aros? There were a few sold to members of this forum, including Bksze and Kenta. From what I saw when touring Panda's faciltiy back in 2008, they were using white fibergalss tubs along with some bright lights, definitley brighter than 40 watt shop ligths, but not marine lights either. I have no idea what the spectrum used was. I bet that is relevant information.

I know Kenta did his best to keep his Platinum Head looking like it did on arrival; he did WTT and regular 40 watt flourescents. In time the fish' head colour dropped away and it ended up being a BBXB. Same thing happened to Bksze's fish too I believe.

The reason I do not like WTT is because of situations like this one:

http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3413

Stop the WTT and you often lose the high shine.

I would not class the fish that Boydo has been bringing in with those "platinum heads" of Panda's; as stated earlier, I think there are purely groomed GH's on the market (that are kind of "tricky" fish), and others that are also groomed, but also have a blood line with the GH mutation genes.

Concerning Richard Goh, there is a good older article about him here : http://arowanaclub.com/stories.php?story=06/12/20/5998567
He was kind of famous for raising and breeding his aros on a diet of raw pork meat I believe.

 

[Boydo]

Grooming of GH must involve some combination of WTT and use of lights imo.

Some well known farm rep is on record at MFK of recommending 24 hour, 7 days a week lighting for aros, for the purpose of improving colour. However, there is no word on the specific lights he recommends using.

To my knowledge, Panda was amongst the first aro farms to start selling any type of "head" aros; for those with a longer memory on this forum, remember the "Platinum Head" aros? There were a few sold to members of this forum, including Bksze and Kenta. From what I saw when touring Panda's faciltiy back in 2008, they were using white fibergalss tubs along with some bright lights, definitley brighter than 40 watt shop ligths, but not marine lights either. I have no idea what the spectrum used was. I bet that is relevant information.

I know Kenta did his best to keep his Platinum Head looking like it did on arrival; he did WTT and regular 40 watt flourescents. In time the fish' head colour dropped away and it ended up being a BBXB. Same thing happened to Bksze's fish too I believe.

The reason I do not like WTT is because of situations like this one:

http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3413

Stop the WTT and you often lose the high shine.

I would not class the fish that Boydo has been bringing in with those "platinum heads" of Panda's; as stated earlier, I think there are purely groomed GH's on the market, and others that are also groomed, but also have a blood line with the GH mutation genes.

Golden Heads have been in Canada for a while. I purchased my first Golden Head in 2003 it was from DFI.

In the link you posted I remeber seeing that one. IMO...That fish looks like it was keep under very powerfull lights to the point it looks tanned. Although I beleieve it was stated otherwise.

Like you stated the WTT is the new normal it is in almost every farm and pro shop in Singapore.

 

[Boydo]

A few more interesting pieces of info to point out about Mr.Goh advise.

There are some key things that I believe can be taken from his experience with grooming GH Xbacks.

Even though he uses the term "tanning", I think that grooming would be more accurate as he specifically states that he only uses "just normal white light ", and also states "white tank is a must", "Must be white tank, you can transfer to black tank after it reaches mid size" and last but not least "all this are high quality, it's the gene that is important and with skill you fully develop it's potential".

I think that this confirms that the environment that a high quality GH is kept in (especially when at a juvenile stage) is key to its proper development. Perhaps most importantly HO lighting is not used to achieve the high shine, or the development of gold in a GH xback. As previously stated IMO the term "groom" the fish would have been a more accurate description of what he actually does. Tanning implies darkening of pigment, such as what's done when one "tans" a red aro. A normal white shop light isn't going to "tan" anything. Perhaps this is where some people in the Western world came up with using some kind of intense lighting to "tan" their GH aros? This seems to be a case of ..... being lost in translation.


At one point in this discussion one of the members asks Mr. Goh:

"Hi mr richard just to check if we put back say a mid size 60% GHXB (around 15inch)
to WTT again will it help to improve the goldhead percentage and crossing? or it
will not help already since its already 1 yr plus old liao"


Mr. Goh's response ........ of cos it will


I personally think that the expectations of some aro keepers is simply unrealistic, and this is a general comment about the hobby as a whole. If a fish isn't stunning by the time it reaches 12-15" many people sell them and look for a better one. Long gone it seems are the days when one patiently waited 3-4 years, or more, for their aro to show its full potential, which for many fish is what it takes. Lots of time, TLC via good water quality, premium food, and an overall low stress ideal environment is what it takes to groom out a premium aro to its best.

 

[Cirrus]

When it comes to expecatations of customers, everything is relative. I've had people spend many thousands and understand that not everything is predictable, while others have spent only a few hundreds or even traded some old equipment or something for a fish and then become upset when the fish doesn't develop as well as they think it should. In general, the more time a seller spends in educating a buyer, the fewer problems down the road. So just keep doing what you are doing.