Tanning lights

[rainbowfish]

Personally I hate WTT but that is just me. Good luck finding XB's anywhere that have not had WTT, the market has been moved in that direction, there is no moving it back in my opinion. Same sort of thing is happening with Gold Heads now, the market has been moved in that direction, people want those fish. I think WTT and "special techniques" need to be followed, however, if Gold Heads are to be maintained. If people buy groomed GH fish thinking they can keep them looking like that without continuing the grooming they are setting themselves up for possible dissapointment I think. This is just my opinion based on my limited research.

It is near difficult to find farms that do not do wtt. Because now hobbyists demand is different. Not many people will pay and buy a crossback with 4-5th level shine and no pearlies.

 

[Cirrus]

It is near difficult to find farms that do not do wtt. Because now hobbyists demand is different. Not many people will pay and buy a crossback with 4-5th level shine and no pearlies.

I agree, but what happens if the shine level drops when WTT stops? Pearlies are left, but no more high shine. If you are lucky you get a good XB, if not you end up with a HBRTG.

My problem with WTT is that it allows for farms to make all their juvenile fish look great. It becomes very hard I think to tell a strong fish from a weak fish since WTT makes all of them look good. Just my opinion based on my experience.

 

[rainbowfish]

I agree, but what happens if the shine level drops when WTT stops? Pearlies are left, but no more high shine. If you are lucky you get a good XB, if not you end up with a HBRTG.

My problem with WTT is that it allows for farms to make all their juvenile fish look great. It becomes very hard I think to tell a strong fish from a weak fish since WTT makes all of them look good. Just my opinion based on my experience.

You are right, the wtt sometimes make RTG looks like crossback also, very common.

Shine will drop once into black tank. But the benefits is having darker core colour and stronger gold tone. Just like paying premium price for xback with golden head. Maybe we need to keep the fish in white tank base minimum until certain size like 12inches before shifting to black or blue tank. Otherwise, the "Golden head" will drop also maybe.

 

[m_class2g]

it is a gamble to buy a smaller GH xback since most go through WTT just like its a gamble to buy a smaller non confirmed red aro for a cheaper price. its the same thing imo. next golden head aro i would purchase would be one that is around 15 inches + just to make sure the head is more stable. even though there is no definite outcome as to the stability of the GH once the aro is not groomed in WTT at the farms, we are still taking a risk buying into this fad. this hobby is a gamble! unless you have top dollar to buy the highest quality fish, be satisfied with what you have. this is what ive learned throughout the years of trying to find my dream aro.

 

[AroNoob]

it is a gamble to buy a smaller GH xback since most go through WTT just like its a gamble to buy a smaller non confirmed red aro for a cheaper price. its the same thing imo. next golden head aro i would purchase would be one that is around 15 inches + just to make sure the head is more stable. even though there is no definite outcome as to the stability of the GH once the aro is not groomed in WTT at the farms, we are still taking a risk buying into this fad. this hobby is a gamble! unless you have top dollar to buy the highest quality fish, be satisfied with what you have. this is what ive learned throughout the years of trying to find my dream aro.

Did your GH's head fade when you weren't grooming the fish?

 

[Boydo]

Personally I hate WTT but that is just me. Good luck finding XB's anywhere that have not had WTT, the market has been moved in that direction, there is no moving it back in my opinion. Same sort of thing is happening with Gold Heads now, the market has been moved in that direction, people want those fish. I think WTT and "special techniques" need to be followed, however, if Gold Heads are to be maintained. If people buy groomed GH fish thinking they can keep them looking like that without continuing the grooming they are setting themselves up for possible dissapointment I think. This is just my opinion based on my limited research.

Far more important than the ability to search the Internet and calling it "research" is hands on experience.

So you're against grooming of crossbacks but it ok to groom reds?

How many NAN or tanning lights do you have on your Super Red? What's the difference? You're using grooming techniques to enhance the color of your fish. Once the tanning stops the color lifted by the tanning goes away.

The problem I have with WTT is the simple fact that there are some "unscrupulous" dealers who will sell lower quality fish as premium grade using various grooming techniques. But that does not dismiss the fact that high quality GH aros are created via line breeding aros with high quality GH genetics. If you deal with reputable breeders/farms & reputable dealers, getting scammed will not be an issue. (such as silvers being sold as platinums, or rtgs sold as xb's)

Here Pang Long demonstrates the line breeding and planning for the future:

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431321

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434071

Another example of how genetics is more important than grooming.

The great debate that always seems to come up; will the shine or gold on head goes away if treatment doesn't continue.

NO! Once the shine is there it will stay there as long as you DO NOT USE H.O. lighting on crossbacks! No matter how good the quality the fish will never cross as its back will burn to a dark color.

As one who has imported many gold heads of various quality and high grade gold xbs I can honestly say that I have never seen shine drop or gold head go away if properly kept. And by proper you don't need a white tank just cheap shop lights. The most important part of our aros is that they are selected by quality and potential NOT by the cheapest available in the farm which our competition does to have low prices.

There are no secret lights that turn xbs into golden heads!!!!

The WTT grooming is actually mostly simple - White FGT low water level and a few STANDARD output white lights. Some fish will respond and others won't. You won't get the same results in an aquarium with white paper wrapped around it.

It is near difficult to find farms that do not do wtt. Because now hobbyists demand is different. Not many people will pay and buy a crossback with 4-5th level shine and no pearlies.

This is why education is so important. If a young aro only has 4 - 5 the row development and no pearlies it isn't a quality XB - WTT or no WTT.

I agree, but what happens if the shine level drops when WTT stops? Pearlies are left, but no more high shine. If you are lucky you get a good XB, if not you end up with a HBRTG.

My problem with WTT is that it allows for farms to make all their juvenile fish look great. It becomes very hard I think to tell a strong fish from a weak fish since WTT makes all of them look good. Just my opinion based on my experience.

First you need to have a good enough relationship with the farm to have the opportunity to select from their best stocks with finances to buy the better more expensive fish. If you or other importers / distributors base the stock on cost as the most important factor you will not get the best fish......just that simple.

But you already know this.

Good fish with good potential cost more than others that don't have the potential.

And yes, with experience one can easily see the difference of quality in young as much as you claim "grading can't be done at 6 inches".

You are right, the wtt sometimes make RTG looks like crossback also, very common.

Shine will drop once into black tank. But the benefits is having darker core colour and stronger gold tone. Just like paying premium price for xback with golden head. Maybe we need to keep the fish in white tank base minimum until certain size like 12inches before shifting to black or blue tank. Otherwise, the "Golden head" will drop also maybe.

Not common at all a WTT RTG still looks like RTG if you understand what to look for. This is the real problem of some of these grooming techniques is that there are people out there doing these things and many people can't see the difference and get taken advantage of.

Shine doesn't drop unless you burn it off. Most people don't realize there is a difference between the shine and where the overall color is lightened by WTT. I have seen first hand where people have a WTT aro and believe it is crossed already where the back is lightened and appears crossed but the shine can be clearly seen at only the 5 th level. So when a fish like this darkens in a black tank the uneducated owner thinks the shine has dropped to the 5th level where it hasn't at all, the base color has just darkened.

I very clearly demonstrated a good quality gold head in a black tank in the pictures in post #11. You be the judge!

it is a gamble to buy a smaller GH xback since most go through WTT just like its a gamble to buy a smaller non confirmed red aro for a cheaper price. its the same thing imo. next golden head aro i would purchase would be one that is around 15 inches + just to make sure the head is more stable. even though there is no definite outcome as to the stability of the GH once the aro is not groomed in WTT at the farms, we are still taking a risk buying into this fad. this hobby is a gamble! unless you have top dollar to buy the highest quality fish, be satisfied with what you have. this is what ive learned throughout the years of trying to find my dream aro.

I understand your opinion, but the bottom line is if you use HO lighting on even the best gold head available ... say goodbye crossed back and some of the gold head.

Sun light emits 6500K, tanning lights are 10000K which is totally at the opposite end of the light spectrum. Therefore Gold XB in the farm ponds obviously would not respond to natural lighting.

If two respected Aro farms say markings on XB heads are NOT natural, I think I would tend to believe them. One in fact even warns its customers that Goldhead markings could disappear if tanning ceases.

Look here Xenon240, some Gold heads swimming in a pond without secret light bulb and 6500k sunshine?

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393729&highlight=wtt+gold+head&page=4

I for one would be curious as to which farms you're referring to and if they even produce gold heads.

Of course they're not natural. They are the result of line breeding. For those not familiar with line breeding this is where they take fish with special or unique attributes and breed them specifically to make more fish with these special attributes. No different than the discus you see these days. They are not natural at all, but the result of specialty breeding for certain patterns and colors.

The bottom line is that no matter what the opinions are, the facts are 80-90% genetics give the fish what it takes.

Lousy fish and grooming = still lousy fish.

Good quality GHs are expensive, here is one from your new supplier kaiju. This piece is high quality but there is much better available.

This guy is $6000 usd!

If your lights could turn your xbs into these, I think they would be all sold as gold head.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58658


With all the conjecture on the internet masquerading as "research" I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions.

 

[m_class2g]

im glad we can have a thread like this so that in the near future, when i do venture back indo ghs, ill be more prepared.

 

[Cirrus]

I have never tanned a fish but I did see extensive use of tanning in SEAsia. I bought my very first NAN light a few months ago from a forum member on here selling his used one. Since then I have experimented with it a few times.

I am a trans-shipper, simple as that. I try to establish the best relationships I can with what I think are reputable farms. If a farm does not prove itself I will move on to another one which I think offers better value/trust. In 2008 I spent a good 2-3 weeks visiting multiple farms and aro pro shops in Singapore, Indonesia, and Malaysia. (see: http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=359 , http://www.dragonfish.ca/cvmaju.htm
http://www.dragonfish.ca/xienleng.htm ). I have visited aro pro shops in Holland (http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1751&highlight=netherlands) , Thailand and Hong Kong. I consider myself friends of serious keepers of Asian arowana (http://www.arowanaclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1952&highlight=freshwaterstingray).

From my travel experiences and from my experiences as an importer who has been able to watch the fish I have sold develop over time, I have my concerns about WTT. It is just my opinion, and considering it effects all farms, I don't see it as being self-serving and apologize if it comes across that way.

 

[Cirrus]

Three years ago these guys had some pretty amazing stock:

http://www.dragonfish.ca/extreme_arowana.htm

I first learned of GH while visiting this place; they taught me about gold dust, gold threads, gold patch, half helmet, full helmet. Importance of genetics was stressed to me, my understanding was that GH was initially mutation, but that the mutated fish were then selectively bred. Having told me all that, I noticed that their adult full helmet GH was still kept in a white tank.

 

[xenon240]

I'm biased? It's important that hobbyist learning in this hobby get true and correct information and don't get mislead by sale techniques like this quote from Kijiji:

Goldbase Crossback Arowana 7-8 inches. Includes instructions to make your aro into a Goldhead

Boydo, do you honestly think an Aro hobbyist would buy a fish based solely on speculation that enhancements may occur if they apply a certain technique???

That's like convincing someone to buy a ferrari and telling the customer he would look better if he wears the matching ball cap.

Yes I agree genetics plays a role, but remember there are no "patents" with breeding AROs. Anyone can buy any aro and start a breeding stock. Why then are only a few farms able to produce Gold heads?

Assuming (and I emphasis assuming), that tanning and WTT plays a role, this would be a more costly approach. First the number of lights required per tank and the cost of electricity as they would need to be on 24x7. Maybe most farms see this as an expense not worth pursuing. This would also account for the 200% plus increase in price that farms charge for GH.

 

[rainbowfish]

Look here Xenon240, some Gold heads swimming in a pond without secret light bulb and 6500k sunshine?

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393729&highlight=wtt+gold+head&page=4.

Those GH crossback you seen from the pond pictures are aros that are kept in certain environment until certain size before transfering into pond, thats why the GH is still there with no 6500 or 10000k lightings (as told my the bro who posted the pictures).

Bottom line is GH is good gene with selective breeding plus the correct environment.

 

[Boydo]

If it was just a case of using 10,000K lighting to create a GH on a 7-8" XB that is showing no gold on the head, then most hobbyists that own gold XB would already have gold heads. Think about it. I believe that most hobbyists would find the extra lighting/power well worth pursuing. Many hobbyists already run this much lighting/power, and yet we still are not seeing any XB's being tanned into GH's.

WTT is now standard on Singapore farms, so if all it took was to run extra lighting, for longer duration, and the demand & obvious profit is there for the farms then why wouldn't all farms be doing this? Common sense says it's because that makes no sense. All farms are in this to make money, so if money can be made they will most definitely pursue it.

Boydo, do you honestly think an Aro hobbyist would buy a fish based solely on speculation that enhancements may occur if they apply a certain technique???

That's like convincing someone to buy a Ferrari and telling the customer he would look better if he wears the matching ball cap.

No I certainly dont believe the misleading comments, and I really hope no honest unknowing hobbyist were taken advantage by its "convincing" incorrectness.

I personally think that any seller that suggests to a customer that they can take a 7-8" gold XB, and turn it into a GH, is setting the customer up for total failure, and disappointment. I think that a better comparison would be convincing someone to buy a KIA and keep it in special garage with special light and in no time it will magically turn into a Ferrari.

It is not going to happen, and IMO advertising like this is a disservice to the hobby, and the industry as a whole. Quite frankly this type of advertising tactic speaks volumes to me about the honesty & integrity of the seller.

Yes I agree genetics plays a role, but remember there are no "patents" with breeding AROs. Anyone can buy any aro and start a breeding stock. Why then are only a few farms able to produce Gold heads?

Think about it! The farms that have developed gold heads have spent a great deal of time, knowledge and money to develop these very special and rare fish that cost thousands more than gold xb's. Why would they simply hand their secrets and research to the competition???? It would be like Americans giving the Russians Nuclear technology during the Cold War...LOL.

Yes, I agree rainbowfish as far as GHXB's are created by selective breeding, just as most traits are in any serious fish breeding program. Genetics is the key to GH, the rest comes down to correct grooming and environment. Those photos by your bro illustrate just that, as do the various GHXB's shown in tanks with black backgrounds. If the genes are present one does not need to keep a GH in WTT for life, which is what has been implied in this discussion. The link below shows a 2+ year old GHXB kept in a tank with black background.

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442314

Other members of that forum also keep GHXB in tanks with black background, as do I. I have already clearly shown in post #11 that GH does not disappear when placed in a dark environment. (such as black background) Yes, environment can play a large role in how most fishes tones & color will develop, but that does not mean that a GH XB will lose any gold when kept in a tank with black background. The result of that is simply a deeper tone of gold, which in my experience most hobbyists seem to prefer.

I think farms that say GHXB are created by special lighting and WTT have never bred GHXB, never sold GHXB, and have a reason and motive for spreading false rumors. Perhaps they should spend less time spreading rumors, and more time & money on the breeding of their fish.

If bright hot lights are placed over young XB, the usual result is fish gets burned and never crosses, and most likely loses GH as well. I'm surprised to read that anyone would even consider tanning a GHXB, let alone state matter of fact that it can be done, and/or that doing so will produce GH.

Every farm has its own special breeding programs, with different names of these special crosses. These strains don't just evolve by accident, they are created by breeders with certain traits always in mind. Aros such as Red Splendor, Rose Gold, Harmony, Rainbow, Tong Yan etc don't just happen overnight, they are line bred crosses that have been developed over time by farms for a special look. None of this may be what some consider natural, but GH aros are not created just by keeping in white tanks with special lighting. They are the direct result of years of selective line breeding.

The Pang Long GH brooders shown in the link above clearly show the quality of the brooders selected for their line of GHXB. They hold back the aros showing the best qualities/genetics, and selectively breed these fish knowing that a certain percentage will come out looking as good, and even better than their brooders. This is certainly nothing new in the science and art of breeding tropical fish, farms/breeders have been utilizing these same principles since the beginning of time.

This type of breeding is how all the fancy strains of fish in the hobby have been created - longer fins, shorter bodies, longer bodies, bigger heads, brighter color, bigger spots, wider barring, albino strains, etc etc etc. You see this in discus, goldfish, guppy, molly, platy, cichlids, and almost every popular type of ornamental fish in the hobby - all bred for certain traits that are never seen in wild fish.

If a farm selectively breeds for high quality GH this is just a natural progression of aro breeding. Not all offspring will have GH potential, so a higher price for a GH is a simple case of supply & demand. The more gold on the head, the rarer, and the higher the price. I don't see shiny gold heads being a fad, more like taking a very beautiful fish, and making it just that much more beautiful. I'm pretty sure if the price was the same, most hobbyists would choose GH over regular gold XB every time.


Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but I see no point in posting information that is completely lacking any type of factual basis. The fact is, when buying from an experienced reputable farm, and a reputable dealer, if properly maintained GHXB will not lose their GH when kept in darker tanks.

 

[Cirrus]

....when buying from an experienced reputable farm, and a reputable dealer, if properly maintained GHXB will not lose their GH when kept in darker tanks.

For me the jury is still out; we should know for sure in another year or so when follow up photos and video are taken of fish currently owned in Canada.

Given the uncertainty of so many aspects of our hobby ( ex. will a juvenile red become really "red", and if so blood or chilli? Will a juvenile XB fully cross?), I will not be surprised if some juvenile GH lose their GH as adults while others keep it.