Are my expectation too high?

[Cirrus]

Let me say something. I played around in most of my posts trying to keep the site in a very humorous and entertaining one. Seems that it is time for me to say something now. And I will say this is the fare judgement based on my experience on having aros.
Let me take one spoon of rice with meal first. en, that it is.
When we talk about paying less for an aro. there is nothing wrong with that. but if you turn the attitude into NO LFS, but group buy, then it is wrong. In the market, we have so many different demands. And people have different tastes, which does exist everywhere and it is beyong the control. This is the economy. If you studied the book concerning MARSNO (Definitely wrong spelling because I only studied in Chinese, it is cleared stipulated for the 5 different demands)
For aros, some are willing to pay higher because they only focus on the top end quality. In general, people here is willing to spend 1000 ~ 1500 price for a red, so called decent quality.
Everyone here in Canada is well aware of one price, one service; and one price, one quality.
If Cirrus can prove that his aros. at the lower price can beat my aros., I will spend USD 20,000 to take 20 or 13 pieces more from him immediatley. Don't get me wrong that I want to pay higher price if I can get lower. But the thing is we are talking about quality issue at the same time.
Fairly speaking, you get what you paid, it is quite simple. (special cases are not involved because there is special case everywhere), I mean in general. So beating LFS for goupe buying does not sound good and fair. That is why I bring my comments here -- I mean serious this time.
If some LFS over priced their aros, then you can always walk away to find better deal from different LFS. So please don't attack LFS because of their higher price. In case someday you are the owner of LFS, your attitude will be totally different.
Again. One price, one service; one price, one quality.

Here is what I will tell you Rulaifu - I can provide you an arowana of equal quality to any you will find in Canada for 50 to 60% less money through group buying directly in Asia. How do I know this? At least until very recently Panda fish were selling retail in Canada (across all grades) for twice the price that Dragonfish.ca sells them for (when you include the GST/PST component, which Dragonfish incorporates into its prices). Would you disagree with this statement of mine?

Here is an idea I'd like your opinion on Rulaifu. If you have say $5,000 to spend on a fish, wouldn't it make sense to do some paperwork in advance, and then FLY to Asia to get your OWN high end fish in person? For $3,000 that you spend there buying a fish in person, you could get what would sell for $5000 in Canada. Agreed? The extra $2000 would then pay for your air ticket! That is what I would do!

 

[rulaifu]

To be honest I am somewhat confused with all this world pricing on Arowana, on one Business trip to London I've seen adult Fish purchased from Hong-Kong for British Corp Office in London at P23,000.00 that's over $40,000.00 CAN. In Ukraine (Kiev) and Russia (Moscow), I've seen them from $100 to $600US - for nice (from my opinion Reds and golds). And in Canada best looking fish I've seen in the LFS was at Riverfront Calgary for $5000.00

Conclusion, as I breed Discus and sell Discus, there are fish that I would sell and give discount, and there are my favorites (adult fish) that I am only willing to sell but at very high price ($400 and up). If someone don't like it - to bad, my fish, my choice. If I don't sell it - so much better, as they make good display and breeding samples. If people can get them somewhere else for cheaper, makes it easier for me - not to look for replacements or grow-out new from young once. Supply and demand is in control of the market.

I totally agree with your concept. No prejudice. It is a very fair concept. It is the supply and demand market.

 

[Cirrus]

Sorry, I have to bow out of a fun debate just when it is getting interesting! I think everyone is being respectful here of one another on a topic that could easily get out of hand. I hope everyone has fun with the topic and look forward to checking in 24 hours to see what new stuff has been written!

Unfortuntely for me I am camping out at my in-laws right now as part of our moving house. No more internet access for me today!

 

[Alx]

Sorry to hear that Cirrus,
Cheers

 

[rulaifu]

Here is what I will tell you Rulaifu - I can provide you an arowana of equal quality to any you will find in Canada for 50 to 60% less money through group buying directly in Asia. How do I know this? At least until very recently Panda fish were selling retail in Canada (across all grades) for twice the price that Dragonfish.ca sells them for (when you include the GST/PST component, which Dragonfish incorporates into its prices). Would you disagree with this statement of mine?

Here is an idea I'd like your opinion on Rulaifu. If you have say $5,000 to spend on a fish, wouldn't it make sense to do some paperwork in advance, and then FLY to Asia to get your OWN high end fish in person? For $3,000 that you spend there buying a fish in person, you could get what would sell for $5000 in Canada. Agreed? The extra $2000 would then pay for your air ticket! That is what I would do!

For your first paragraph, I agree that your panda aros. price is competitive. It is like when you work in Honda dealer, your price might be very competitive among all the Honda dealers in the country, but how can you talk Honda to BMW? Let me clear this out. This is only the sample, I don't say Panda is Honda, the others are BMW.

For your second paragraph, yes, I agree if you give me an example for spending 5000 but actual can buy at 3000 in person. If you are doing this to all the aro. hobbist, I think they will be interested. However, since you want to have my opinion, to be honest with you, I personally will still go with LFS because I have my special request on aros. Excuse me because it is only my personality, nothing to do with your offer on the group buying.

 

[rulaifu]

Sorry, I have to bow out of a fun debate just when it is getting interesting! I think everyone is being respectful here of one another on a topic that could easily get out of hand. I hope everyone has fun with the topic and look forward to checking in 24 hours to see what new stuff has been written!

Unfortuntely for me I am camping out at my in-laws right now as part of our moving house. No more internet access for me today!

Hope my answer to you will not be too late.
Yes, this site is too bad to let me concentrate my work.

 

[protoxeno]

To be honest I am somewhat confused with all this world pricing on Arowana, on one Business trip to London I've seen adult Fish purchased from Hong-Kong for British Corp Office in London at P23,000.00 that's over $40,000.00 CAN. In Ukraine (Kiev) and Russia (Moscow), I've seen them from $100 to $600US - for nice (from my opinion Reds and golds). And in Canada best looking fish I've seen in the LFS was at Riverfront Calgary for $5000.00

Conclusion, as I breed Discus and sell Discus, there are fish that I would sell and give discount, and there are my favorites (adult fish) that I am only willing to sell but at very high price ($400 and up). If someone don't like it - to bad, my fish, my choice. If I don't sell it - so much better, as they make good display and breeding samples. If people can get them somewhere else for cheaper, makes it easier for me - not to look for replacements or grow-out new from young once. Supply and demand is in control of the market.

I agree that if personally I am selling something and the price no body likes and I am fine with that then no problem. But LFS needs to make a living and has to care if customer thinks its too high a price. At the end of the day if LFS keep thinking "Don't like price take a hike!", they will go out of biz.

If I think LFS price is way over price (which I do), I'll voice it out.

 

[Alx]

That's the beauty of having the Freedom of Speech.

Cheers.

 

[protoxeno]

So far the pcs at LFS......are well hondas at BMW prices.

 

[xbackgolden]

I totally agree with your concept. No prejudice. It is a very fair concept. It is the supply and demand market.

100-600 USD for a gold or red, not possible my friend considering the buy in price for farms is already much higher. Unless your talking about Banjars and RTGs.

 

[xbackgolden]

I actually got the quote from FR farm which we all know what farm provides FR right?, thats their FR price they offer me and said its 6inch with red cheeks and red scales. I am not refering to the pic I referenced but from the FR farm. Thats the thing, you get a good red for about the same price.

I don't think we get the same price at all because its 3k+ SGD and isn't Elegant Aqua selling a 22" VFSR thats for 2800 negotiable too? Thats not a 10" SR with potential aspect.

http://arofanatics.com/members/alvinheng/forsale22vfsr/

Note... He is selling this fish it its own capacity and although this fish is big, it isn't red, it looks red because of the Nan light. If it were red, the price won't be cheap. And AF pricing is a poor reflection of the market prices as it doesn't not reflect retail and farm prices. Selling on AF is like selling to a 2nd hand car dealer. As for reds which show color at 6 inch, the color is faint, it is only amplified because on the black background and the nanlight. However, subjecting young fish to this will result in drop eye. Remove the fish from the black tank and cutting down on the tanning will result in the color fading away. So its really up to you to decide for yourself, the fish might leave SG with some color, but it does not guarantee that the color will stay.

 

[xbackgolden]

As someone who lives in Singapore who is involved in the arowana business, you are at an advantage when it comes to dealing with such companies. I can assure you that as an outsider living in Canada, if you send them an email, it is not answered by the president of the company (at least it wasn't when I emailed). When you email Panda Aquatics you get a reply direct from Mr.Kan.

As for the quality of this firm's fish, I have a friend who recently bought 50 fish from them as a first time overseas customer and there were serious problems with 4 of them (basically unsaleable). Needless to say that first hand knowledge of mine makes me nervous to work with this firm in the future.

I suggest to your friend to contact Mr Yap. He is the pioneer in the arowana trade in Singapore and will certainly help your friend out as he is known to be a real gentleman in his dealings. They are a public listed company so they will want to maintain their standards and good reputation.

 

[protoxeno]

To: xbackgolden

Bro thank you for you comments, I confirmed myself what you say red even with good bloodline which sold at very high price when showing in young age will still turn out not red w/o tanning skills. I found a post at AF about selling of these 2 reds which were never tanned b4 since day 1 so colour faded despite good bloodline.

http://arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309263&highlight=Mitra+Sarana+Aquatama

All the more when paying expensive for good potential without TLC will still turn out not very red. Thinking comming reds will also make the colour fade.

 

[Cirrus]

100-600 USD for a gold or red, not possible my friend considering the buy in price for farms is already much higher. Unless your talking about Banjars and RTGs.

What is your opinion of Indo farms that are offering Super Reds's at $550-650 USD for minimum purchase of 30 pieces? I believe the price can even be got below $500 if you make a purchase of 100 pieces! We are not talking banjars here, nor are we talking graded high end reds; supposedly they are just "good' quality reds.

I was thinking of checking out such farms in person in a couple months time.

 

[xbackgolden]

What is your opinion of Indo farms that are offering Super Reds's at $550-650 USD for minimum purchase of 30 pieces? I believe the price can even be got below $500 if you make a purchase of 100 pieces! We are not talking banjars here, nor are we talking graded high end reds; supposedly they are just "good' quality reds.

I was thinking of checking out such farms in person in a couple months time.

Yes, i am well aware, I am also able to buy at these prices. And mind you, I have alot of contacts in Singapore, even major farms who refuse to buy at these prices. Why? Firstly, the fishes offered to you are really small 4-5 inches. Tags will be issued but they will be belly tagged which is risky to the fish as it can result in high mortality rates. In addition to that, there is no way to ascertain that they are high quality super reds.

Why? Coz, they are offering you a supposed BMW at South Korean car prices. Some thing is certain to be wrong. They can mix other fishes like banjar or rtgs into your order and you won't know. Coz, it is diffcult business differentiating aros at young ages I can't do it despite looking at so many fishes and being around them for so long. How confident are you in selecting the right ones? I am not saying this to put you down, but Banjar reds do look identical to super reds at that size, in fact they look even better as they have redder finnages. There are incidents where some of our good local customers get cheated when rtgs are sold as xbacks and that is even done to repeat customers. You guys as foreigners don't understand the local markets, and it is tough doing business with the Indonesian farmers. Its really not as easy as it seems.

Imagine if you offer the fishes at such low cost only for customers to find out that the fish bought is not the super red that they though it was. The seller will have a hard time giving a good explanation, such incidents have already happened in SG where a xback turns out to be a rtg and a red turns out to be a banjar.

Lastly, no farm will say they produce low quality fish. So of course they are not going to tell you that the fish is of high quality, but if they tell you its a red or defect free red, you know wat you expect.

 

[xbackgolden]

To: xbackgolden

Bro thank you for you comments, I confirmed myself what you say red even with good bloodline which sold at very high price when showing in young age will still turn out not red w/o tanning skills. I found a post at AF about selling of these 2 reds which were never tanned b4 since day 1 so colour faded despite good bloodline.

http://arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309263&highlight=Mitra+Sarana+Aquatama

All the more when paying expensive for good potential without TLC will still turn out not very red. Thinking comming reds will also make the colour fade.

Keeping and grooming the reds which you see in pictures is not easy. Only a few in this business can do it, that is why they can sell for alot of $$$$. I know one guy who is able to do it, but after observing him for so long, I still have not quite figured out the secret.

 

[protoxeno]

OH! Your friend dont' wanna share the secret ? I wanna know the secret too.

 

[EKen]

Protoxeno:
Don't we all...

XBackGolden:
Leave me alone with your friend...I will make him talk

 

[Cirrus]

Yes, i am well aware, I am also able to buy at these prices. And mind you, I have alot of contacts in Singapore, even major farms who refuse to buy at these prices. Why? Firstly, the fishes offered to you are really small 4-5 inches. Tags will be issued but they will be belly tagged which is risky to the fish as it can result in high mortality rates. In addition to that, there is no way to ascertain that they are high quality super reds.

Why? Coz, they are offering you a supposed BMW at South Korean car prices. Some thing is certain to be wrong. They can mix other fishes like banjar or rtgs into your order and you won't know. Coz, it is diffcult business differentiating aros at young ages I can't do it despite looking at so many fishes and being around them for so long. How confident are you in selecting the right ones? I am not saying this to put you down, but Banjar reds do look identical to super reds at that size, in fact they look even better as they have redder finnages. There are incidents where some of our good local customers get cheated when rtgs are sold as xbacks and that is even done to repeat customers. You guys as foreigners don't understand the local markets, and it is tough doing business with the Indonesian farmers. Its really not as easy as it seems.

Imagine if you offer the fishes at such low cost only for customers to find out that the fish bought is not the super red that they though it was. The seller will have a hard time giving a good explanation, such incidents have already happened in SG where a xback turns out to be a rtg and a red turns out to be a banjar.

Lastly, no farm will say they produce low quality fish. So of course they are not going to tell you that the fish is of high quality, but if they tell you its a red or defect free red, you know wat you expect.

Ah, now this gets to be very very interesting. I have been making the same arguments as you for some time. Recently, however, some people in Canada have begun selling Indoreds that we are talking about. People are importing cheap Indoreds to Canada, that cost less than Panda Reds, and then ask more than the going rate for Panda Reds! That shows you how messed up the market is in Canada I think...Unless of course you can trust those low-ball prices offered by farms in Indonesia! What is a person to do!!

It is a very difficult situation to figure out, both for importers/brokers, retailers, and customers. I hope FOSSILFISH can jump in here and provide his opinion on this situation as he recently bought two such Indored fish I believe?

By the way, I am not seeking to stir up trouble here. I am genuinely after knowledge. As someone heading to south east Asia with plans to buy A LOT of Asian arowana, I just need knowledge to go on. I hope we can continue to have a mature discussion without anyone taking offence.

And thank you for an honest response Xbackgolden.

 

[Alx]

It was Asian Arowana, - what kind and where they from - not a clue. I am new to all the marketing and colors for Arowana. I was focusing on Discus (and is) but did side notes on other fish of my interest. I was there in 2000 and 2004.
(in year 2000 $600US was a half a year average wage for a person - just so we clear what it is to them and in 2004 about a 3 month wage). I am planning a trip next year - or shortly after, and should be able to update to more current state and what variety it is.