Ph vs tds, PH swings a myth

skynoch

skynoch

Moderator
Finally got a project done at work and can play normal life again for a day or two. So I'm bored as sh*t doing laundry and got slammed on MFK about this but nobody really could answer some of my responses in pm's about questions I had.
Alot of people say it isn't ph swings that kill rays it's the tds that does. I can google all day for either side and find supporting posts either way but what I'm curious about is any personal experiences. Do you think ph swing is a myth or do you think with rays tds is the major factor. :confused:
 
It's a very tricky testing method as either way puts your ray in harm so I was kinda wanting to learn by mistakes that people have made. One discussion I had is I used ph down when acclimating a ray in a very high tds water and the ph would bounce but the tds wouldn't....the ray died within a day. Now was the death due to ph bounce or was the ph down harmful to the rays. The ph down was mixed with tap water before going in the tank.
 
I think ammonia kills most fish...as for PH I've never really bother with it as what comes out of my tap is what goes into the tank....I've only once many many years ago adjusted my ph with my Mobas and Kitumbas fronts when they were breeding but never since.
 
I never pay attention to tds at all or have the equipment to test it :). But for ph up and down I only deal with ph up power before and I have no problem with it. So to me if higher tds in the tank which mean Ammonia, Nitrate and other are high as well which cause the tds high.
 
I posted some of this on another site, where a member has simular trouble. I hope this help just a little bit. I have no scientific evidence other than my experince with our water.

Mountain run off contains natural occurring co2 in the water which will lower the ph right out of the tap due to carbonic acidulation. Like others mentioned on MFK if you let the water sit for about 24 hrs it will return to 7.8-8.2. The water before it hits ambient air conditions will be at this Ph until it is aerated through a tap and exposed to atmosphere conditions then it will drop until these gases leave the water. After the gases leave the pH will return to it's normal range. All water piping needs to run a high pH and cites will even add caustic soda to maintain this pH as it greatly reduces corrosion and protects the pipelines.

I believe like I have mentioned before that some of your trouble is with the pre-filters you use. I have been experimenting with drip systems for years (Blocks, active carbon, RO, DI). I have come to the conclusion that carbon blocks and active carbon filters do not work well in our environment. I found that besides the chlorine or chloramines these filters remove other trace elements that buffer our water. I have no scientific evidence other that my experience. I run over 3000 gallons of aquariums and now I trust only dosing systems regardless of chlorine or chloramines. I had major issues with pH and stress on my fish while using filtered water, everything changed all the time I could barely keep up. I have been dosing with safe (prime in bulk) using a aqua medic reef doser for several years now with incredible success. You could use premixed sodium thisulphate with distilled water in chorline systemds for the same results. We have hard water here as our water comes from High Mountain run off and glacier sources. This water is very similar to all cites that take water from the foothills. This water although hard is balance very well for fish. I believe that when you run this water through a carbon blocks etc that you not only remove the chlorine but trace mineral or elements that buffer the water. This is why I think you struggle to control your pH.

If you find that your Ph is low before a water change in the aquarium it is caused from a build up of organics and tds(large bio-load or over feeding). As these decompose it will drive your pH down until you perform a water change - Hence reducing the organics. If you are experience this you need to perform larger and frequent water changes. Some people have also had success with adding crush oyster shell to their filter media to help buffer the changes.

HTH
 
hondas3000 said:
I never pay attention to tds at all or have the equipment to test it :). But for ph up and down I only deal with ph up power before and I have no problem with it. So to me if higher tds in the tank which mean Ammonia, Nitrate and other are high as well which cause the tds high.
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No ammonia,nitrite and nitrate are not the factors for high tds. tds is the total disolved solids. Usually high nitrate tanks will coincide with the tds lowering.
 
skynoch said:
No ammonia,nitrite and nitrate are not the factors for high tds. tds is the total disolved solids. Usually high nitrate tanks will coincide with the tds lowering.
Click to expand...

Sorry tried to edit my above post as it didn't make sense after I wrote it and read it. Yes high nitrate is usually coincided with high tds in a tank but ammonia and nitrite may not really coincide with high readings.
 
I'm in agreement with boydo about the filters taking out maybe some trace elements that may be healthy to our fish but depending where you are it may also take out some elements that are harmful. My tds as of tonight was 500 out of the tap and 480 to 490 out of the filters so according to the tds readings there is not much change but with my parrot chiclids the coloration is better in my prime tank than my drip system tank. I have never noticed any difference with my rays health or color so maybe anything that is stripped is not needed for the rays.
As you can see with my tank a high tds would not reflect ammonia,nitrite,nitrate or a ph drop. Again this is such a hard subject as we all start out with different water qualities and some may have high tds readings but little buffering minerals or have very low tds readings and no buffering capacity which you would see ph fluctuations with very low tds readings.
I'm not sure at what levels a tds fluctuation would cause problems as I have imported rays from SA and put them in my tank with no problems but in the same sentence ph wasn't that big of a deal also, so I don'think going from low tds/ph to a high tds/ph is that big of a deal but at what effect does a high tds/low ph to low tds/high ph have. This is where I've seen most of the problems occur.
lol I think I lost track of what I was saying.
 
Do you think ph swing is a myth or do you think with rays tds is the major factor?
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PH swing is not a myth.. it can happen. its simply easy to test for, so its blamed a lot.

ANYTHING in the water other then PURE H2O, other then solids... contributes to TDS..

TDS can effect PH... but so can a lot of other things.

In water chemistry, every thing effects each other..

I dont really understand the question to be honest. Other then, PH swings are not a myth, and TDS can be a major factor, but that would depend on why the TDS is high... ALL fish need minerals, metals and salts in they water for growth and metabolism.. but these also contribute to TDS.

Nothing is more important than stability in an a ray tank...

Why even bother testing PH, GH, KH, TDS, etc... if you have zero ammonia, zero nitrites, and low nitrates?

with an efficient filter, water changes, proper temp, good diet... you'll have no issues for the most part.
Use the water you have... we all know rays will do fine in almost any PH...basically any hardness, etc.. Why test for other things(which will almost always lead to attempting to alter) the others?

If fish are fine, and nitrogen readings are good... i see no other reason to test for anything else.

Most issues generally lead back to not enough water changes, not properly treating the water before adding it to the tank.. poor filtration and circulation, poor gas exchange... tank too small, stocking too high...etc..

After that, its usually people trying to alter their water parameters.. which leads to more issues..

Or some other sort of external influence..
 
We do need to test for other factors to help us determine some problems that are encountered. Once a tank is well established and all the water chemestry is figured out then spot checking every few months for nitrites and nitrates should be all we need to do unless problems are occuring. With rays for the first few years they are constantly growing and thier appetites are allways increasing thus your bioload is increasing and you will need to do frequent water parameter checks to determine if your waterchange schedule is correct or if more biomatter or mechanical filtration is needed.
Will have to end this short as just got called out to work.....will finish later
 
skynoch said:
We do need to test for other factors to help us determine some problems that are encountered. Once a tank is well established and all the water chemestry is figured out then spot checking every few months for nitrites and nitrates should be all we need to do unless problems are occuring. With rays for the first few years they are constantly growing and thier appetites are allways increasing thus your bioload is increasing and you will need to do frequent water parameter checks to determine if your waterchange schedule is correct or if more biomatter or mechanical filtration is needed.
Will have to end this short as just got called out to work.....will finish later
Click to expand...

Agreed... but what does this have to do with:
"Do you think ph swing is a myth or do you think with rays tds is the major factor?"
Click to expand...

PH swings are not a myth.... they happen.. they can kill.. the reasons PH can change or swing is many... TDS can play a role...

TDS can have negative effects as well.. too low, and the fish's metabolism can not function properly, and they are not getting enough minerals and metals needed for proper growth...
Too high.... and something could be wrong, like high organics...

Im not sure how this applys to rays though, as it applies to every fish..

So i suppose, to answer your question... "Do you think PH swing is a myth?"
No.
"or do you think with rays tds is the major factor?"
Depends... noted above, it could be low, it could be high TDS...

Generally speaking... PH swings are generally when the PH drops suddenly, high organics will cause this.. high organics = high TDS...

Again... ph and TDS are not the issue here.. its high organics..
 
Sorry Joey didn't get to finish the last response. On a thread on MFK I was told by quite few people that ph swing has no bearing on a ray it is a fluctuation in tds that is the true culprit. Which from practical experience with rays doesn't allways explain why rays are acting up but ph bounce does everytime. To me a good example of this is a r/o only tank where the ph swings could be high even with a low tds buildup. There is a small swing in tds with tank changes but not as severe as when I'm acclimating a wildcaught ray into my 500-750 ppm water. Now high tds to low tds is suppose to be the killer swing. One example someone used on MFK about ph swing is when co2 is injected into a planted tank the ph can swing drastically but doesn't effect his fish. He has not tried this with rays to my knowledge. Now alot of people in Calgary have experienced problems with there rays during this period of runoff from the mountains and this was explained by boydo about the co2 in the water and it gassing off causing ph fluctuations but this would not fluctuate the tds during this time. So again to me ph is more the problem than tds when it comes to swings.
 
The thread in MFK where we started debating things was started by Rudy and is reverse osmosis for rays
 
A tank with R/O water will and can experience huge PH swings based on the fact that it has a very little to no buffering capacity... That has nothing to do with TDS. Although an RO tank has low TDS anyways...

The rays blood PH changes with the waters... just like every other fish.

Humans have a constant blood PH that doesnt change. So we feel no ill effects from a change in PH, cause it doesnt happen with us.

With fish, when PH changes, it can lower blood pH at the gills, meaning the fish can no longer circulate oxygen in its body the same. How does that have no ill effect on the fish? Its suffocating it....

So yes, a PH swing does have a bearing on a ray, or any other fish for that matter.

PH dropping, also doesnt mean its TDS... or that its the TDS thats causing the issue... It may be a high TDS, but that deosnt mean its a harmful high TDS, its whats causing that TDS to be high in the first place that MAY be harmful(high organics).

PH can drop for a number of reasons. My two favorite reasons to eliminate first are high organics.. (TDS MAY indicate this, but not always)
Second is oxygen levels in the tank.... Over stocked tank produce a lot of Co2. Some produce more Co2 then the tank can gas off.. this can lead to the ph dropping..

So what is the end result here?

PH can kill....

So can TDS...

Each may or may not have something to do with each other at the time..... depends on the situation of the tank that is having the issue.
 
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