rtg and red aro ????
- Thread starter dencio
- Start date
chen88
Super Moderator
it's a bad idea IMHO.....2 is not a good match although there are a few...very few that has proven this to be incorrect. I would think most people will say it is extremely risky...out of 10..it's a 10 on the risk factor. I have 9 10-12" in my tank and they still fight...not as much as if there were a lot less of course...but they will fight!
hustler
New Member
All boils down to luck...... for me anyways..... I have had a few aro pairs with no problems.... and 2 years later try to kill eachother Or adding a 3rd kill it outright then fight ect ect. i couldnt imagine a head on 1 on 1 fight with no other distractions.... With silvers maybe.... but you have such a nice rtg, and a diablo red.... I wouldent try it myself for even a day
bcarlos
Member
It sounds to me like you want to upgrade from your current red. Rather than risk the aggression (and, as Yuppa points out, inevitable torn fins and dropped scales) of housing the two together, I'd sell the first red and upgrade to something nicer.
My advice: don't get hung up on marketing gimmicks (i.e. Diablo red is just a red aro with a trademarked name), go for a nice fish from a reputable farm. Look for the qualities that you admire in a nice piece and make the committment.
My advice: don't get hung up on marketing gimmicks (i.e. Diablo red is just a red aro with a trademarked name), go for a nice fish from a reputable farm. Look for the qualities that you admire in a nice piece and make the committment.
Boydo
New Member
I would definitely avoid a 2 aro comm as the success rate is very low. With all comm tanks some aggression is always present. Its up to the owner if its acceptable or not. In most cases more aros (6 or more) will spread out the aggression. Most importantly its up to each aros personality and if they will interact well with the others.
FYI, Diablo Reds are selected out of many other Red arowanas for Shape and color and most importantly genetics - the Diablos are a premium grade. Further more every Diablo Red or Pang Long / Sing Arowana fish is hand selected and approved by myself or our agent in Singapore. This is not a marketing gimmick! A marketing gimmick is claiming a high grade super red but then selling it for $700-900 - I'm sorry but a high grade red for $700-900 is not true. You can get a standard grade red for $700-900 you may get lucky and get a great one or maybe not this is the chance one takes for this low price. I guess what I am trying to say is look at the the fish and the farms reputation for delivering quality arowanas.
FYI, Diablo Reds are selected out of many other Red arowanas for Shape and color and most importantly genetics - the Diablos are a premium grade. Further more every Diablo Red or Pang Long / Sing Arowana fish is hand selected and approved by myself or our agent in Singapore. This is not a marketing gimmick! A marketing gimmick is claiming a high grade super red but then selling it for $700-900 - I'm sorry but a high grade red for $700-900 is not true. You can get a standard grade red for $700-900 you may get lucky and get a great one or maybe not this is the chance one takes for this low price. I guess what I am trying to say is look at the the fish and the farms reputation for delivering quality arowanas.
Cirrus
Arowana blogger
Unless you are willing to pay a bit more and buy a slightly larger super red fish with confirmed colour qualities there is no guarantee how it will turn out. This goes for fish from any farm in my opinion.
While on the subject of a farm's reputation, I find that some farm photographers appear to fool around with photoshop a bit much for my liking. There was recently a minor uproar in the women's fashion industry about female models being air-brushed in photoshop to beyond perfection. The same kind of thing happens with the marketing of Asian arowana.
Luckily Shine Aquatics holds fish for resale inside Canada, allowing potential customers to view video or photos of the landed fish taken here in Canada; that alone is worth paying a premium price in my opinion. I trust the photos and video from Shine Aquatics, but am much less confident about the overseas photos and marketing. Something tells me I am not the only one to feel this way.
While on the subject of a farm's reputation, I find that some farm photographers appear to fool around with photoshop a bit much for my liking. There was recently a minor uproar in the women's fashion industry about female models being air-brushed in photoshop to beyond perfection. The same kind of thing happens with the marketing of Asian arowana.
Luckily Shine Aquatics holds fish for resale inside Canada, allowing potential customers to view video or photos of the landed fish taken here in Canada; that alone is worth paying a premium price in my opinion. I trust the photos and video from Shine Aquatics, but am much less confident about the overseas photos and marketing. Something tells me I am not the only one to feel this way.
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chen88
Super Moderator
I agree with all the above statements: 
I've had many types of aros from various farms as like most of you. My first Red was from DFI and he was amazing...so was the price...amazing high! LOL....but I got the fish with nice colouration, spoon head with a green base.
My recent purchase of Pang Longs are outstanding....at 8" spoon heads, broad bodies, and colours on gill plates and shines up pass 5th level. The Gold and blue based XB's are all past 5th level with lots of 6th level shine....
I think you need to adjust your expectations to what you are willing to pay...that's all..
I've had many types of aros from various farms as like most of you. My first Red was from DFI and he was amazing...so was the price...amazing high! LOL....but I got the fish with nice colouration, spoon head with a green base.
My recent purchase of Pang Longs are outstanding....at 8" spoon heads, broad bodies, and colours on gill plates and shines up pass 5th level. The Gold and blue based XB's are all past 5th level with lots of 6th level shine....
I think you need to adjust your expectations to what you are willing to pay...that's all..
Cirrus
Arowana blogger
Chen, your fish came in showing colour on the gill plates at 8 inches. I have no problem with them being called or graded "premium".
However, if super reds for sale do not show confirmed colour characteristics, they can not be properly graded yet, and they should not be called premium. This is true for Maju, and it should be true for Diablo too in my opinion.
I like the Maju grading system for super reds:
6-7 inches Guaranteed Super Red (may or may not turn out "premium")
8-12 inch Large Super Red (showing red, but normal grade)
12-16 inch Large Super Red (showing red, premium grade)
18+ inch Extra Large Super Red (show grade)
Each grade has a different price, only the largest two are categorized as top grade or premium. With the lower levels you are guaranteed a super red - whether it will turn out premium is anyone's guess.
The best way to resolve the issue about value for money from various farms would be to compare photos of landed fish for retail sale in Canada of similar sized fish - and then compare the prices too.
However, if super reds for sale do not show confirmed colour characteristics, they can not be properly graded yet, and they should not be called premium. This is true for Maju, and it should be true for Diablo too in my opinion.
I like the Maju grading system for super reds:
6-7 inches Guaranteed Super Red (may or may not turn out "premium")
8-12 inch Large Super Red (showing red, but normal grade)
12-16 inch Large Super Red (showing red, premium grade)
18+ inch Extra Large Super Red (show grade)
Each grade has a different price, only the largest two are categorized as top grade or premium. With the lower levels you are guaranteed a super red - whether it will turn out premium is anyone's guess.
The best way to resolve the issue about value for money from various farms would be to compare photos of landed fish for retail sale in Canada of similar sized fish - and then compare the prices too.
chen88
Super Moderator
I agree with Theo as well....all I'm saying is everyone here has a price point and quality to match that. Same thing with Rays...I chose to buy BD's which is just a higher grade P13...sometimes regular leos turns out nicer then some BD's....NOTHING with any other farm's Aros....I've seen some Premium XB/GH that turns out look like HBRTG and some good RTG's looking like XB's
bcarlos
Member
I have seen Chen's aro's in person and I think they have great potential at such a young age, and knowing the time and energy he invests into caring for them, I'm confident that they will remain premium grade fish.
My comment was no knock on the quality of Pang Long, or any farm for that matter. I was simply pointing out that names like "Diablo" and "VIP" are marketing gimmicks used to sell the same fish (albeit perhaps of varying quality) - a red Asian arowana. A buyer should be concerned with the quality of their individual fish... not necessarily the marketing name given to sell fish.
My comment was no knock on the quality of Pang Long, or any farm for that matter. I was simply pointing out that names like "Diablo" and "VIP" are marketing gimmicks used to sell the same fish (albeit perhaps of varying quality) - a red Asian arowana. A buyer should be concerned with the quality of their individual fish... not necessarily the marketing name given to sell fish.
chen88
Super Moderator
I didn't think you were knocking on the quality of Pang Long
I've had the chance to get "VIP" Reds from Vincent but again, buy the fish for the fish rather then the certs.....and when i saw the VIP's...I didn't like the quality of them compared to their price...or at least with the fish at that time from what i was able to pick from. The Pang Long Reds and Xb's I got...i purchased based on the actual fish....not so much the names..frankly I didn't really know what the heck a diablo red was! ....I'm only family with Super Red, Chilli Reds and VFSR....but they're all reds! and named by the farms so most knows where they come from....or think they do..
I've had the chance to get "VIP" Reds from Vincent but again, buy the fish for the fish rather then the certs.....and when i saw the VIP's...I didn't like the quality of them compared to their price...or at least with the fish at that time from what i was able to pick from. The Pang Long Reds and Xb's I got...i purchased based on the actual fish....not so much the names..frankly I didn't really know what the heck a diablo red was! ....I'm only family with Super Red, Chilli Reds and VFSR....but they're all reds! and named by the farms so most knows where they come from....or think they do..
i really like you comment Hustler!this system it should help the solve all of our worries hey!post all our aro photo then we compare photos .
Boydo
New Member
We are all entitled to our own opinion, and it's great that we can share those
opinions here on this forum.
Having said that I would like to respond to some of the comments posted thus far in this discussion.
The floor mangers et al at Pang Long and Sing Arowanas will generally know exactly
what they have in their juvenile arowana. They pick the 1st grade, then 2nd grade,
then on down from there. They know what to expect by the genetics of their brooders,
by which pond the fish came from, and the identification of their parent (father)
when harvesting. These people have years of experience and have acquired skills in
selecting and grading arowanas, and have it down to a science.
Once these fish go into grow out tanks/ponds the fish are graded further and move
into other tanks of matching grades. Trust me we know the potential of the juvenile
arowanas and there are prices to match the quality of each grading. This is no
different than many other species of fish raised on a commercial basis (Koi, Discus,
Flowerhorn, etc) where the fish are graded, re-graded, and priced accordingly while
still very young juveniles.
Due the great spread in our hobby I can imagine that many Canadian hobbyists have
probably not had a lot of experience or time around numerous young arowanas. This
type of constant day in & day out hands on experience is how one learns to be able
to see the difference in potential between say 15 , 30, or more, 6-8 inch juvie red
aros swimming in the same tank. Trust me there is a very obvious difference between
young aros, and yes they can be graded at 6 inches. Some farms even start grading
earlier than that. This is their business; and they would never send out a AAA piece
for a price of a standard grade, when they can sell it for 4 or more times the value
to someone who is willing to pay for it. Who's not to say that occasionally a great
potential piece might slip into the standard grade stock, or vise versa, a standard
grade slipped in with the premiums. This does happen but very rarely in my
experience.
This is precisely why some vendors in Canada have to pay more wholesale per arowana,
than some of the other vendors sell their arowanas for at retail. Its not all mark
up. A reputable seller wouldn't try to sell a standard super red as a premium, just
like a premium red would not be sold at the same price as a standard quality piece.
High quality arowanas simply cost more, and under no circumstance will you get a
premium red or any premium arowana for cheap at retail or even group buy level. The
odds of doing so is about the same as the odds of winning the lottery. The farms
know what they have, and each piece is priced accordingly. Most farm owners also
know that they can't sell their best quality red for $10,000.00 in Canada as no one
will pay that here. Those quality of fish are often picked out as small as 6-8
inches, then sent to Japan, China, or Vietnam for sale where there is a much larger
market and much deeper pockets.
Yes Diablo is a trade name, and while some might refer to this as a "gimmick", the
reality is that when marketing a premium brand a trade market name helps develop it.
In the business world, it's referred to as brand recognition. (ask Coca-Cola how
that works)
The Diablo's are not a standard red nor are they a roll of the dice for quality.
They are selected and reselected and grouped together as Pang Long's Premium Reds.
The fish that don't make their stringent criteria are sold under other names or
other farms. The ones I select for Canada a very high Premium quality, and while
there are higher quality, there are very few willing to pay $6000 + in Canada for an
arowana.
opinions here on this forum.
Having said that I would like to respond to some of the comments posted thus far in this discussion.
The floor mangers et al at Pang Long and Sing Arowanas will generally know exactly
what they have in their juvenile arowana. They pick the 1st grade, then 2nd grade,
then on down from there. They know what to expect by the genetics of their brooders,
by which pond the fish came from, and the identification of their parent (father)
when harvesting. These people have years of experience and have acquired skills in
selecting and grading arowanas, and have it down to a science.
Once these fish go into grow out tanks/ponds the fish are graded further and move
into other tanks of matching grades. Trust me we know the potential of the juvenile
arowanas and there are prices to match the quality of each grading. This is no
different than many other species of fish raised on a commercial basis (Koi, Discus,
Flowerhorn, etc) where the fish are graded, re-graded, and priced accordingly while
still very young juveniles.
Due the great spread in our hobby I can imagine that many Canadian hobbyists have
probably not had a lot of experience or time around numerous young arowanas. This
type of constant day in & day out hands on experience is how one learns to be able
to see the difference in potential between say 15 , 30, or more, 6-8 inch juvie red
aros swimming in the same tank. Trust me there is a very obvious difference between
young aros, and yes they can be graded at 6 inches. Some farms even start grading
earlier than that. This is their business; and they would never send out a AAA piece
for a price of a standard grade, when they can sell it for 4 or more times the value
to someone who is willing to pay for it. Who's not to say that occasionally a great
potential piece might slip into the standard grade stock, or vise versa, a standard
grade slipped in with the premiums. This does happen but very rarely in my
experience.
This is precisely why some vendors in Canada have to pay more wholesale per arowana,
than some of the other vendors sell their arowanas for at retail. Its not all mark
up. A reputable seller wouldn't try to sell a standard super red as a premium, just
like a premium red would not be sold at the same price as a standard quality piece.
High quality arowanas simply cost more, and under no circumstance will you get a
premium red or any premium arowana for cheap at retail or even group buy level. The
odds of doing so is about the same as the odds of winning the lottery. The farms
know what they have, and each piece is priced accordingly. Most farm owners also
know that they can't sell their best quality red for $10,000.00 in Canada as no one
will pay that here. Those quality of fish are often picked out as small as 6-8
inches, then sent to Japan, China, or Vietnam for sale where there is a much larger
market and much deeper pockets.
Yes Diablo is a trade name, and while some might refer to this as a "gimmick", the
reality is that when marketing a premium brand a trade market name helps develop it.
In the business world, it's referred to as brand recognition. (ask Coca-Cola how
that works)
The Diablo's are not a standard red nor are they a roll of the dice for quality.
They are selected and reselected and grouped together as Pang Long's Premium Reds.
The fish that don't make their stringent criteria are sold under other names or
other farms. The ones I select for Canada a very high Premium quality, and while
there are higher quality, there are very few willing to pay $6000 + in Canada for an
arowana.
RDFISHGUY
New Member
IMO you get what you pay for 9 times out of 10. I never paid top dollar for my fish but I new from the start they were good quality. I was told I could get better if I wanted to pay more. You can tell what the piece will turn into by looking at certain things.
XB's:
1. How high is the shine?
2. Pearlies?
3. Bullet or spoony?
4. Gold on the head?
5. Color of gold.
6. Body shape. Is he a healthy weight or skinny.
7. How does it eat?
8. Tail shape. Does it have a large wide fan tail or smaller, uneven tail.
9. Swim posture. Does he swim around with fins against the body or flared out.
10. Base color of the scales.
11. How are the eyes? Drop eye? Clear and attentive. Are the eyes too big for his body?
12. Is the mouth even or does it have PLJ or overbite?
Once you select from these criteria then ask:
13.How much? You can work backwards from there deciding what you are willing to sacrifice. Once you have selected then ask for the cert.
Reds.
1. Is color cracking on the gills.
2. Is rim color coming in?
3. Base color. Usually blue or green.
The rest is the same as the XB. Spoony heads and fan tails are more important to me here than with XB's.
4.Lips. Does he look like he wears lipstick? This is a good indication.
5. Barbels should be long and even. Not as long in XB's but nonetheless important. They should be straight not curled. This can be due to poor water quality.
6. Scales should be even and more or less round. If edges are jagged this is a sign of chipped scales. I didn't mention it above but it applies to XB as well.
7. Go to a respectable dealer and ask to see many fish. Choose the one you like from a selection of fish. This way you can compare and look for the traits that are more important to you. In a group setting certain fish will jump out at you.
If you can't decide ask your dealer which ones they like and why.
I certainly don't have the experience that some other members have but this is a good place to start.
XB's:
1. How high is the shine?
2. Pearlies?
3. Bullet or spoony?
4. Gold on the head?
5. Color of gold.
6. Body shape. Is he a healthy weight or skinny.
7. How does it eat?
8. Tail shape. Does it have a large wide fan tail or smaller, uneven tail.
9. Swim posture. Does he swim around with fins against the body or flared out.
10. Base color of the scales.
11. How are the eyes? Drop eye? Clear and attentive. Are the eyes too big for his body?
12. Is the mouth even or does it have PLJ or overbite?
Once you select from these criteria then ask:
13.How much? You can work backwards from there deciding what you are willing to sacrifice. Once you have selected then ask for the cert.
Reds.
1. Is color cracking on the gills.
2. Is rim color coming in?
3. Base color. Usually blue or green.
The rest is the same as the XB. Spoony heads and fan tails are more important to me here than with XB's.
4.Lips. Does he look like he wears lipstick? This is a good indication.
5. Barbels should be long and even. Not as long in XB's but nonetheless important. They should be straight not curled. This can be due to poor water quality.
6. Scales should be even and more or less round. If edges are jagged this is a sign of chipped scales. I didn't mention it above but it applies to XB as well.
7. Go to a respectable dealer and ask to see many fish. Choose the one you like from a selection of fish. This way you can compare and look for the traits that are more important to you. In a group setting certain fish will jump out at you.
If you can't decide ask your dealer which ones they like and why.
I certainly don't have the experience that some other members have but this is a good place to start.
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RDFISHGUY
New Member
This is great idea but I put little merit in it. There are too many variables. What light, what subsrate, what tankmates, what food, what size tank, water parameters, post photo editing? You could get a 3 dressed up as a 9 with a good camera and quality editing. Likewise a guy could have a great piece and take a picture with his cell phone and it will look terrible.
RDFISHGUY
New Member
Some good books will also help you select quality fish. I have read the last 3 Indo dragon books and watched the videos that come with them. This is where you will find certain fish, farms and brand names come into affect as they will continue to jump out at you. You can also search the media lounges on various forums. OK I think that's all I have to add.